This New Year started out on such a positive note.
Then, the reality of being black in America hit like a ton of bricks.
Millions have been absorbing the news reports about the murder of Oscar Grant on New Year's Day in the train station. I obtained video from another blog that shows the clearest video of the murder of Oscar Grant by Johannes Mehserle. I do not want to encourage those who are emotionally disturbed by seeing cold-blooded murder to watch this video.
Ta-Nehisi Coates has linked to this video. More than 130 comments resulted, mostly from male commenters. Many commenters offered excuses for the behavior of the transit officer who pulled the trigger.
The blog host of Oakland Cop Watch has asked that people post this video on their blogs in order to generate more national support for the prosecution of these officers. I don't believe that showing a murder at my blog will generate national support for the prosecution of Johannes Mehserle. It would only serve to create more emotional rants about this horrible crime.
I read news reports that there is a $25 million lawsuit filed on behalf of the family by attorney John Burris. Oscar Grant was a father of a four-year old. KTVU.com is following this case closely.
Johannes Mehserle has not been arrested and has not been charged with a crime by Oakland Police. The list of contact persons at the Oakland Police Department can be accessed here. More than 100 demonstrators were arrested when a riot resulted in damage to 300 businesses.
Johannes Mehserle claims that he accidentally drew his gun instead of his taser. There wasn't any reason for him to have pulled out his taser. The video shows that Oscar Grant was lying on his belly and was not resisting arrest. Mistaking a taser for a gun is unlikely. A taser doesn't even feel like a gun when it is being held.
Johannes Mehserle has resigned from BART. Since he is no longer a BART employee, he does not have to cooperate with an internal investigation. How convenient.
Jack & Jill Politics had an in-depth blog discussion about this incident. There is contact information for Bay Area Rapid Transit Board of Directors provided in their comment section. Will the board members hold BART Chief of Police Gary Gee accountable?
Are our phone calls enough? No.
Has marching lost its effectiveness? Yes.
I am not mentioning this case in order to invite a discussion about what has occurred. We all know what occurred.
I want to focus our group discussion on other important nuances:
- Let us examine the implications of legalized murder of black men and black male adolescents on the emotional well-being of black women.
- Let us discuss how the annihilation of black men is part of advancing white supremacy and white patriarchy.
- Let us analyze why this annihilation strategy continues to succeed in all sections of our nation and outline the annihilation strategy that has advanced in the last fifty years through the criminal justice system and law enforcement entities.
Does our collective inaction mean that we are ready to admit defeat? If black men are becoming extinct and if there is a concerted effort to annihilate them, should black women try to save them from extinction? Should we shrug and place our attention on forging political and economic ties with men of other races?
If we decide that black men aren't worth saving, what are the consequences for the black community? If we decide that black men are worth saving, what are the tangible benefits for black women?
The truth is that many black women feel that their sons should be saved by us but they are not as emotionally committed to the notion of black men being saved by black women. "Let the men save themselves!" a female reader declared in an email missive.
Are black men marching in the streets about issues that directly impact black women?
Are black men actively seeking to protect black women from danger? Why then should we decide to step into the battle to protect them from danger? Many black women have mixed feelings about whether black men deserve to be saved by us.
I am willing to bring that discussion out in the open.
What have the black advocacy organizations, such as N.A.A.C.P., N.A.N., National Rainbow Coalition and National Urban League, collaboratively implemented to address police brutality and legalized murder? All of those organizations are headed by black men and this issue disproportionately affects black men and black male adolescents.
Are black men waiting for black women to put on our red S capes and rush to save them from the lynch mob in blue? I saw Oscar Grant's mother on television. Where was his father? Where were his uncles? Where were the black male pastors in Oakland? Where were the fathers of the others who were being detained by police?
We know that unarmed black men and black male teenagers are killed by police every week. Only the most horrific murders with video taped evidence become national news stories. The other legalized murders are often dismissed after cursory "internal" investigations in which the officers involved receive paid vacations during the "investigations". Sometimes, they are suspended with pay after the "investigations".
The officers' usual defense is that they believed that they were in danger.
Anyone who has reviewed crime statistics is well aware that the perpetrators of murder against blacks are usually other blacks. The perpetrators of murder against whites are usually other whites.
Most black women tell their sons to cooperate with police in the event of any detainment or any verbal admonishment by police. That's not enough. The police will murder a person who is cooperating fully - if they feel like it.
Black women face police brutality as well. Last month, Gina at the blog, What About Our Daughters?, reported that a 12-year old girl, Dymond Milburn, was assaulted in her own backyard by police who claimed she looked like a prostitute.
Why hasn't a national action plan been successfully implemented?
I spoke to a mother who said that all black men are viewed as criminals by the police. That statement is only partially true. I know plenty of black men who are never stopped by police and do not live in the areas where police brutality is most prevalent.
There are certain behaviors, certain body language and a certain class tier dialect that is given a "thug" identification by law enforcement. It's racist - and it's our reality.
As soon as law enforcement notices the body language, the scowl, the dialect, they decide that they are in danger! This is classism and racism. Many black people want to pretend that the police brutality issue is primarily race-based. It isn't. There are far more instances of legalized police murder of blacks from lower socioeconomic backgrounds than any other segment. The animalization of the black underclass and the black lower class has been underway for decades. What have we done to counter this specific aspect of the annihilation strategy?
How do we refute ingrained racial stereotypes? How do we dismantle classist mechanisms upheld by law enforcement?
As we ponder these questions, let us also consider the type of action plan that should be implemented at a grassroots level.
1. Black residents in black residential areas have to stop ignoring the criminal element in their own communities. We need to draw a clear line in our neighborhoods and separate the men and boys who are menaces to society from the men and boys who are not. There is a blurred line in many neighborhoods between the criminals and the non-criminals.
Most black women who are in all-black neighborhoods mention that the majority of the black men and black male teenagers who are on the streets are not contributing to the safety and order of the environments that they inhabit.
We need to stop referring to teenagers as "babies". When they leave your house, no one sees them as "babies". A 12-year old who is deemed a "threat" by police would be gunned down by police as quickly as a man would be.
Black residents do not have a collective strategy in place to stop mentally-ill persons from roaming the streets without police intervention. I do not assume that all mentally-ill persons are dangerous but I believe that we need to take them off the streets and get them into treatment.
2. Black people need to start snitching. They need to start filing more police reports. How does filing more police reports address police brutality? It puts more criminals in contact with the police. The police start looking for suspects whenever the residents in the neighborhood fail to report who has actually committed the crime. If you report the criminals to police then your son won't be stopped in the street as a suspect.
3. Black voters need to target the mayor of every city. The police chief is appointed by the mayor. There has to be a concerted effort to demand the removal of the police chief when the officers under his/her authority are committing legalized murder. If the police chief's job is never in jeopardy, there is no incentive at all for that police chief to swiftly remove officers who are murderers. Police chiefs love to announce that they have implemented sensitivity training. They fail to acknowledge that ingrained racist conditioning does not disappear during a class or a workshop. The dismantling process is more complex than they have dared to articulate.
4. We need counter-actions to address racial profiling. If you are aware of the prevalence of racial profiling and you are aware of the behavior, the clothing, the body language that is most often associated with criminals, what actions should you take?
If the police are looking for a suspect who is dressed in baggy jeans, hanging off of his behind, and a North face jacket and a baseball cap, why would you allow your son to leave the house dressed in in baggy jeans, hanging off of his behind, and a North face jacket and a baseball cap? If you know how police define "thugs" then why do you allow your son to fit into the definition?
Many blacks have argued that being black is the primary reason for police harassment of black men. I don't believe that. My brother is in his 40s and has never had a police confrontation in his life. He doesn't fit the profile that the police use for "thug" identification.
If you think that appearance has nothing to do with police profiling, think again. We can't continue doing the same things and thinking the same way and expecting a different result.
I know that many people will say that appearance should not be the issue we bring to the table. We have to bring it to the table because appearance impacts how we are treated by others. Those who think that race is the primary factor in "thug" profiling are in denial about the fact that class identification is usually the primary factor in "thug" profiling.
I would wholeheartedly agree with anyone who declares that we need to dismantle racial profiling among police - and until we do - stop allowing your child to become the personification of that profile.
5. Nothing changes unless there are swift and stern consequences. A small percentage of community residents start protesting when a legalized murder occurs. Until the masses begin to issue consequences, nothing will change in the leadership of our cities. What are the consequences that we are prepared to issue? What would cause the mayor of your city to take swift action?
Community groups often hold neighborhood meetings and create skeletal action plans that are not implemented by the entire community. A small group of people usually come together to discuss the issues impacting the community. The rest of the community remains passive and are content to allow others to fight the battle that belongs to them.
The media may present a news report about the community meeting to perpetuate the "illusion" that the community's concerns are being addressed. An official may attend the meeting to listen to concerns. If there are no consequences issued by the voters, that official does not have to take action. Attending the community meetings becomes nothing more than a photo op.
This is the solution that I propose.
What is your solution?
I am interested in hearing more ideas that others who are reading can implement in their communities.
Sunday, January 11, 2009
CONFRONTING LEGALIZED MURDER BY THE BOYS IN BLUE
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
58 COMMENTS:
EXCELLENT POST! I agree that there should be some dialog and a national action agenda developed surrounding the perceived lack of value of black life and personhood. You are also correct that this is an issue both within and without the community. Immediate action is critical. While the national attention is focused on the economy and foreign issues, we are sitting on a powder keg of neglect in the black community that will have catastrophic consequences if not dealt with.
Lisa: Thanks, first, for bringing this issue up. Second, I agree with all that you've said. Third, I want to focus on one of the points you made. You said black people need to snitch. I agree, but I want to say that this is a very complex situation, that snitching to people who have historically abused your brothers and sisters in your community is dangerous, and it can get you killed.
In my work with youth and their families (some of whom were gangbangers), I found, to my surpise, that these families were not against the police as a whole. But they were angry at their local police precinct for not protecting them against the gangbangers in their neighborhood and for not putting more officers and time into catching people who rob their houses and sell drugs just outside their front or back door. They wanted more police patrols, more police walking the streets to keep the thugs away. Indeed, many of the parents I worked with know that one of the reasons their kids joined gangs for protection against other thugs, for the protection that they should have been getting from the police...
Regarding snitching, I found out that these black families, indeed everyone I talked in black communities, said the problem is not snitching but protection, in other words, after you snitch, who's going to protect you? The police? Who kill people in their neighborhood? Can you rely on people to protect you, when you call them and they still want show up to deal with drug dealing right outside your door?
When the news cameras are flashed in their face, they say they want snitch. But they would say something different if they knew they would be protected.
So the popular notion that black people don't want to snitch needs to explored more deeply.
Thanks for talking about this, Lisa. Blessings
Mental illness is a very tough nut to crack. Many mentally ill people suffer from dual diagnosis. And in a way it is very understandable that people suffering from schizophrenia and bipolar disorder would try to mute their suffering with drugs. Unfortunately, that puts them at risk for incarceration where the chances for diagnosis and treatment are extremely slim.
The laws and lack of mental health insurance make it very difficult to get a mentally ill person into treatment. This cuts across class, race, gender, etc. And it is the case even when people are noncompliant with medications.
I urge people to stop denying the reality of mental illness. Apostle Beverly Crawford mentioned the cruelty of trying to pray away or cast out demons from someone whose problems originate in the biology of the brain.
Also check out advocacy organizations like the National Alliance of the Mentally Ill (NAMI). I urge folks to consider connecting to NAMI's Multicultural Action Center or the state or local Department of Mental Health.
Onwards.
Excellent post (as always), Lisa!
Okay. I'm prepared to be flamed. I'm going to say how I really feel:
I don't care about this anymore. I'm sorry to hear this, like I'm sorry (in a generalized way) to hear about the people suffering in Gaza. But neither one of these events are on my list of priorities. Here's why:
Common sense dictates that I shouldn't be more invested in a situation than the people who are directly affected. The demographic who form the bulk of those shot down by police (Black men) have shown that they don't care about this by their own apathy.
I'm no longer going to be more uptight about it than they are. I'm no longer going to expend more energy on their issues than they do. In fact, I no longer spend any energy on BM's issues at all.
The massive self-slaughter among BM is what makes the police slaughter possible. Dealing with the mutual killing of BM by BM is a project for BM. If BM refuse to deal with this, and so far they have, then that's on them. I'm out of this. It's not my function as a woman to rescue men. That's completely out of divine order.
Common sense dictates that people should recognize that "thug uniforms" have a price tag attached to them. The police stop Black males wearing thug uniforms (sagging pants, long white t-shirt, etc.) because it works for them. It works because patting such individuals down often yields illicit drugs.
This means that a lazy police officer can make his "quota" of drug arrests without having to do any real investigative work. This means that a lazy and corrupt officer can sieze (steal) the individual's drugs and resale them. This means that a lazy and corrupt officer can sieze (rob) the individual of his drug money.
Black males standing around on street corners in these thug uniforms are a "cash crop" for lazy and/or corrupt officers. Since they're standing around waiting to be "harvested," there's no need to bother with the effort of getting a search warrant.
I've known prominent BM who NEVER wore thug uniforms, and were still stopped and harassed by White police (including a middle-aged Black judge). However, not wearing the thug uniform DRASTICALLY reduces the likelihood of being stopped and harassed.
Another reason for me not to care is that there is NO reciprocity from BM. Lisa asked,"Are black men marching in the streets about issues that directly impact black women?"
Answer:NO.
Lisa asked, "Are black men actively seeking to protect black women from danger? Why then should we decide to step into the battle to protect them from danger?"
Answer: NO, they are not lifting a finger to protect BW. Which is why I'm now extending the same apathy in their direction. It's only fair.
Lisa said, "Many black women have mixed feelings about whether black men deserve to be saved by us." I don't have "mixed feelings" about this. I feel that BW's misguided efforts to rescue BM are part of the problem.
BM need to either sink or swim. BW endlessly tossing out lifelines is enabling them to continue to refuse to learn to swim. BW running to the rescue is part of the reason why so many BM feel so comfortable being apathetic toward their OWN life and death issues.
Real life has real rules. One of them is that self-preservation is the first law. Any organism that won't bother to save itself will perish. And it should perish to make way (and more resources available) for those who actually want to live, and those who are willing to work for survival.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Rev. Lisa:
I want to focus our group discussion on other important nuances:
- Let us examine the implications of legalized murder of black men and black male adolescents on the emotional well-being of black women.
- Let us discuss how the annihilation of black men is part of advancing white supremacy and white patriarchy.
- Let us analyze why this annihilation strategy continues to succeed in all sections of our nation and outline the annihilation strategy that has advanced in the last fifty years through the criminal justice system and law enforcement entities.
Does our collective inaction mean that we are ready to admit defeat? If black men are becoming extinct and if there is a concerted effort to annihilate them, should black women try to save them from extinction? Should we shrug and place our attention on forging political and economic ties with men of other races?
My reply:
I believe that solutions start small and begin at home and in local communities.
What this means is that black women can only be concerned about the well being and welfare of the black men who are part of their families first, and it is up to families to raise boys (and for women to link themselves with men) who know what is appropriate male culture. Black male street culture, as it is currently presented, is not it. If that means refusing to date black men who adhere to the street culture, so be it.
But all too often, the street culture (referring to a certain mode of dress, dialect, communication, use of public space) that turns young black men into walking targets is seen as legitimate black culture and as an appropriate form of black male culture.
This does not exonerate the police in any way, but it is pretty foolish to walk through the world without an awareness of the realities:
"Grant, 22, of Hayward, was shot in the back while lying facedown on the Fruitvale Station platform at about 2:15 a.m. on Jan. 1. He was one of a group of young men taken into custody by BART police at the station after a fight on a train from San Francisco".
The comment below was submitted at 10:46 AM and has been edited by the blog administrator to adhere to blog rules.
RiPPa said...
OK, first off, I don't understand the line of thinking that Brothas are waiting or need Black women to step up. Or the line that sistas feel that Black men are not worth the fight. I just don't see it that way. This isn't a problem that's exclusive to Black men; its a problem for Black people as a collective.
Secondly, I think the dress and mannerisms of Black men or Black people (Black women are profiled by race as well; its been documented), is an influence or a determining or contributing factor.
The bottom line is...
The perception that anything Black is bad or criminal.
This is a perception sold by the good ol' forces of white supremacy, and its been pushed since we got off the slave ships.
In my opinion, being that this isn the land of the free, my sons and daughters are and should be free to wear whatever they like without fear of "retribution" from the police.
As far as an action plan?
I cannot help but to continue to stress to every Black person I encounter that its imperative that they educate themselves and in turn their children the law of the land.
By that, I mean WE need to become more educated on the rights that we are afforded per the constitution. I'm sorry but the perception is that as Black people we have a different set of rules. And this may be true to some extent, but did we not fight to become a part of this establishment?
Of course we did. Having said that, what good is it being a part of something and adopting the attitude that we must coform to a different standard? We must educate our kids and each other on our rights as it applies to 4th & 5th amendment involving search and seizure, Terry stops and the whole nine.
Only through knowledge of these protections that we can feel secure enough as AMERICANS that even us as Black people should not, and cannot allow ourselves to be violated.
This is a serious situation because to date there have been 3 high profile police shootings in this country. The Oscar Grant shooting gets all the hype because it was caught on tape. Of the 3 shootings 2 of the brothers are deceased.
Read more IT'S JUST ANOTHER N____ DEAD
I could go on and on, but I'll be following this dialogue because we do have to adress this in an attempt to secure change.
I can't help but to think the Black Panthers had it right back in the day when it came to protecting our communities.
If only they could do the same thing today. Maybe things would be different.
Welcome Pastor,
Thank you for starting off this important discussion!
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
_________________________________
Welcome MacDaddy!
It's great to see the men weighing in on these issues.
Thank you for providing another viewpoint about the dynamics surrounding the "no snitching" culture.
I have encountered only a few who would be willing to report criminals to police if they were guaranteed protection. There are plenty of people I have met who don't even view the hardcore criminals on the block as dangerous. They grew up with them. They speak about these criminals as if they are business men in the community.
In so many situations, it seems that the police could care less about protecting those who come forward with information. They don't seem to care if they have the right suspect in custody, as long as someone is in custody for the crime.
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
_________________________________
Welcome Mildred!
Thanks for adding the perspectives about the mentally-ill. There is a lot of complicated dynamics that relate to the mental hospital evictions that produce scores of mentally-ill persons in all-black areas.
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
_________________________________
Welcome Khadija!
I don't know how anyone can even refute what you have shared.
Many black women feel the way that you do. Many black women do not believe that black men are worth saving. When a legalized murder takes place, the first question is "was this a thug who was not contributing to his environment?" They are not excusing or dismissing the legalized murder of black men, but I sense that they have a huge level of detachment about the deaths of men who were menaces to society - even if their deaths had dubiuos circumstances.
This issue of police brutality impacts black boys as well and most black boys are living in fatherless households so their mothers are afraid for their lives. This is where the issue touches black women at a deeply emotional level.
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
__________________________________
Welcome (Rev.) Pioneer Valley Woman!
I am so happy that you mentioned the dangers in accepting street culture. It produces black male adolescents who are walking targets - for black killers in their own neighborhoods as well as cops who see their lives as utterly worthless.
Many black women allow their sons to identify with street culture. The "gangsta" pose, the "gangsta" wardrobe and the "gangsta" posse are widely accepted in many all-black neighborhoods because no oen is making a connection between the validation of street culture and the willingness of law enforcement to commit more and more legalized murders.
Have we seen a rise in legalized murder with the rise in "gangsta" culture acceptance? I believe we have.
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
_________________________________
Welcome RiPPa!
Thanks for your comment.
I edited out your use of the N-word since I don't permit the use of that word or the use of any profanity at this blog.
The issue of police brutality touches the entire black commumity but it disproportionately impacts the male segment of the black community.
Significantly MORE black men are killed by legalized murder than black women.
I am quite surprised that you don't understand why black women would feel that black men aren't worth the fight.
Let me just toss out a few questions?
Which group in this country has raped more black women than any other group (post slavery)?
Black men.
Which group in this country has committed more physical violence against black women than any other group (post slavery)?
Black men.
Which group is responsible for the explosion of illegitimate black children in this country?
Black men.
Yes, I realize that it takes two people to produce a baby but after the pregnancy, a woman can not force a man to marry her so that is why I place the blame for illegitimate children on the men...but I am not putting the blame on them for the pregnancy itself.
Sure, there are some black men who wanted to marry the mother of his child but they are the few and far between.
Every black woman has not had the black men in her life that I have. My father was not absent. My parents were married and degreed before they even THOUGHT of having any children. My father was successful educationally, professionally and financially. I can't use my own experience as a reference for all black women.
Many black women do not believe that black men are worth saving - based on their OWN experiences. I can't nullify that!
Your view that children need to be knowledgeable about the law is valuable. A person who is targeted for legalized murder who is knowledgeable about his legal rights will not be in a position to stop a police officer from pullimg the trigger.
That's the bottom line.
Let some 18-year old black kid in the 'hood start arguing about his rights with the police and you really think they will say "you're right kid, how foolish of us to have this gun pointed at you, we'll put our guns away now"!
They will pull the trigger, leave the body for the van to pick up and then go get a Whopper combo meal.
I keep hearing black folks coming to this blog forum saying "we should not have to care what anyone thinks of us" and that is a fantasy. We don't live on an island; we live in AmeriKKKa. We are 14% of the population. We live in a nation that supports and reinforces white supremacy.
Blacks do NOT control the criminal justice system.
Blacks do NOT control the law enforcement training or screening system.
Yes, we OUGHT to pay close attention to how we are perceived. Failure to do so usually results in very unpleasant (and often fatal) consequences. I am not saying it's right...I am saying it's reality.
Peace,blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
Rippa:
By that, I mean WE need to become more educated on the rights that we are afforded per the constitution. I'm sorry but the perception is that as Black people we have a different set of rules. And this may be true to some extent, but did we not fight to become a part of this establishment?
...what good is it being a part of something and adopting the attitude that we must coform to a different standard? We must educate our kids and each other on our rights as it applies to 4th & 5th amendment involving search and seizure, Terry stops and the whole nine.
Rev. Lisa:
Your view that children need to be knowledgeable about the law is valuable. A person who is targeted for legalized murder who is knowledgeable about his legal rights will not be in a position to stop a police officer from pulling the trigger.
That's the bottom line.
My reply:
I read the issue of constitutional rights and law enforcement as a matter of life and death education for black people, of whatever age and gender.
Terry stops...What was that all about? The police having the authority to confront individuals engaging in "suspicious" behavior.
So what does that mean in the context of African Americans?
These are issues to think of.
What does that mean in terms of responding to the police when stopped?
What does it mean in terms of the hypervigilance young black men can experience at the hands of law enforcement?
What does it mean in ensuring that one's conduct in public is not directly correlated to the chances of being stopped and/or being targeted?
Perception is EVERYTHING. I have not been in gang culture. I do know that there have been certain types of clothing used to identify people as members of gangs. Why on earth would anyone be dressed in those items? If people that dress like gang members think that they will not be perceived as gang members are really naive and delusional. That is the whole point of the dress. If certain clothing is known in the street as identifying criminal behavior police will use that information regardless of the motive. I just do not understand the issue about 'we should be able to wear whatever we want to without repercussions'. If people truly believe that the police are racist and will singing them out just because they are black, who in God's name would they do stuff that they know will provoke the police to come after them? That makes no sense to me. To me those that do this ask for whatever happens.
I do not have children so I do not have a personal vested interest in this. I am a grown woman that has grown up and taken responsibility for her actions and decisions. There is no way on earth I'm going to take responsibility for a grown man. The only time I did that was when my Dad was going through his brutal health battle. Other than a situation like that I refuse to take any responsibility for another grown person for whatever reason.
One of the most outrageous sermons I heard in the last black church I attended the preacher talked about a survey of bw. The results were that bm were more than willing to put forth the effort to raise their children but 'would not deal with the burden of a man'. The survey and/or maybe the preacher did not give the context of the statement. From what I remember the context was that bm needed the help of bw to make it. This article was used to berate bw for the entire service. Basically we were horrible that we had no interest in helping a brotha out. I was so furious that it was not too long afterwards that I decided to stop attending black churches in general.
I could care less about what any person says to me about how I should care about another grown person. I understand that we are discussing the idea of rescuing bm. I would put this in any context. I am not responsible for another grown person unless there is a health issue (physical or mental). To suggest I should is a waste of effort. I refuse to do it PERIOD. The fact that there has been no effort at all from the vast majority of bm to stand up for bw in recent years makes this idea of rescuing bm laughable. Why should bw waste a moment dealing with a group of people that show no interesting in our protection???? If bw can scrape themselves up during hard times and make it so can bm. All it takes is a choice. That is something that no one else can do for them.
It is also pretty obvious that the attempts of bw to rescue bm has not worked and more importantly not reciprocated. Let these bm take responsibility for their own actions.
Lisa great article. I am living in Jacksonville Fl and been here for over a year. During this time over 40 young black men have been kill by the police.
Now that is scary and shocking and the community seems to be asleep. I don't understand why no one is up in arms about all the killing that is going on.
Our community is becoming more acceptable of this kind of non-sense. I understand what Pamela is saying but for me I could never adopted that attitude.
Are there two different constitutions here in America that I don't know about?
Listen, there's only one constitution. And we are all afforded certain UNALIENABLE rights.
I don't care what I'm wearing or what my son or daughter is wearing for fear of being perceived as being criminal by the police.
Its not the clothes that make the man its the character, is it not?
Having said that, if you're dressed to the T and fiot the description of whatever a gangbanger looks like (whatever that is)knowledge of the law or constitution gives you an advantage.
Letting or responding to an officer in kind takes away the presumed power he has by you being ignorant.
You see, this is where a lot of us get it wrong. We lack the knowledge, and as a result, we act out of frutration. And you know what happens when that's done? You often give them probable cause to arrest you.
Remember, the police can't arrest you because you're Black. He can't go to court and present that as a case. He can have reasonable suspicion to engage you. But you as a citizen are protected by the 4th and 5th amendment in said encounter.
You see, this discussion is about countering the issue of Black men being murdered by the police. To me, all that other stuff about what you wear, or how many Black men leave women pregnant and left behind just isn't pertinent to the discussion by way of a solution.
Trust me: the police doesn't care if you had a father at home to raise you.
Do white people have to worry about how they dress when they leave their homes? No they don't and why should we?
You see, I believe in isolating the problems, and the problem here is racism. Our society is inundated with images which sells the image of the Black man being criminal. Every night on the news we see and hear stories of Black men doing wrong. What, are there no white criminals?
Clothes and assumed perception is nothing we can control. Bottom line: We have always been thought of as less than anything, and we have, and will always be treated as such in this country.
What we have to do is let them know that we're not ignorant to the laws of the land. We must let these cops know that we're not stupid, or as stupid as they think we are.
Now doing this doesn't mean one has to be arrogant when engaged with the police. But a simple thing as knowing that you have the right to refuse your person to be searched per the 4th amendment gives them a heads up that you're no dummy. They can pat you down if they like but they're noy allowed to go into your pockets or person. They will do it unless you let them know before hand that you do not consent to it.
Also, depending on the laws of the state you live in, you do not have to provide ID unless you're a driver in a car when you're stopped. Actually, you don't even have to give them your name, but you can invoke your 5th amendment right in doing so.
You see, for the cops, the trick is to get you to talking. Thats how they are trained. They talk to you and ask you questions with the hopes of you giving them an answer which would in turn transition from reasonable suspicion to probable cause.
Remember, its how you act when you're engaged by the police that often determines the outcome. Clothes, stop snitching and all that other stuff has nothing to do with it. They're gonna continue racially profiling Black people no matter what we wear or what we do. Our place on the racial food chain has been well documented.
Now here's some stuff from the ACLU that someone may find useful...
KNOW YOUR RIGHTS!
And teach them to your kids.
I also wanna note that to date this year, there have been three Black men killed by the police. I just wanted to put that out there because there's very little media coverage surrounding them all with the exception of the case in Oakland because it was caught on tape.
You can read about them HERE
Welcome back, (Rev.) Pioneer Valley Woman!
Thank you for adding more to this dialogue.
You have given us more to weigh in on.
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
________________________________
Welcome back, Pamela!
I agree that perception matters.
Classism is the factor that many black people just do not want to bring into this issue of police brutality. They continue to insist that ALL BLACKS are treated like dogs by police and that is not true.
I know one black person who committed a violent crime, was never arrested by police but the police came to the residence after the crime occured. This person had to appear in court, and then plead guilty but walked away after that.
No arrest was made. No booking. No hand cuffs. Just a PRIVATE meeting with police at home and then a court date ensued!
This NEVER happens to black people in the 'hood.
Never.
Class matters when dealing with police.
You mentioned a situation that occurred at a church you attended. I know you know this already but I will say this for those who are reading along...making blanket statements about ALL black churches or about ALL ministers based on an experience at ONE or even at SEVERAL is not wise.
Even if you have been to THIRTY black churches and you were displeased, THAT doesn't mean that an indictment should be served on the OTHER FIVE MILLION black churches.
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
__________________________________
Welcome Annie!
Thanks for joining this conversation!
Why do you feel you could not have adopted that position?
I can understand some Christian women may feel that it's Christian for black women to be rescuers of black men and of everyone in the black community.
It's perfectly fine to disagree with someone else's position but please welcome to share yours in this conversation.
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
______________________________
Welcome back, RiPPa!
Thanks for sharing your views.
I don't have the impression that you have actually taken the time to listen to all of the commenters in this discussion.
There are quite a few women who have addressed the comments that you are making, but it seems you have glossed over their responses in order to put your view front and center.
I think that some very salient points have been made that can not be easily discarded.
It would not be a waste of your time to thoroughly read through the perspectives that are being offered in this conversation because there are some CRUCIAL layers to this group examination that I feel you have missed.
It is easy to dismiss perspsectives that we have not fully understood.
The reality is that in AmeriKKKa there is no equality between blacks and whites in the criminal justice system. Knowledge of the law OR lack thereof is NOT the reason why black men and black male adolescents are being killed in cold blood.
My feeling is that you are presenting this notion that if black folks KNEW their rights and were able to articulate those rights that they would NOT be killed... I don't think that is true.
You may THINK the issue is about clothing...the issue is about classism. Demeanor, gait, dialect, and clothing are class identifiers as far as the police are concerned.
You may not have noticed but the Professor posed some questions to you and although your comments were lengthy, you didn't touch upon the questions she posed.
She said (in part):
Terry stops...What was that all about? The police having the authority to confront individuals engaging in "suspicious" behavior.
So what does that mean in the context of African Americans?
These are issues to think of.
What does that mean in terms of responding to the police when stopped?
What does it mean in terms of the hypervigilance young black men can experience at the hands of law enforcement?
What does it mean in ensuring that one's conduct in public is not directly correlated to the chances of being stopped and/or being targeted?
I am looking forward to hearing your responses to what the other women in this conversation have offered.
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
You know... I had to step away and think of my comment for a while before I came back to post...I have to totally agree with Kahdija's viewpoint on this.
I purposely moved to a white rural farm town so that both of my sons could have a peacefulchildhood, unlike many of their peers in the next major city 3 hours south of me.
So when my oldest got a wild hair and decided that he was going to dress in a dark hoodie and walk to to library trying to see how many people he could scare to death doing this, he got a rude awakening when he got back. He got his butt chewed like I was starving to death. He got it very clear that he was lucky that some knew who he was (because they know who I am) that no one called the police on him.
I called his dad and asked him to talk to him...not only was he was too busy but he thought the situation was hilarious. I was livid....still am as I type this.
My youngest son's dad had the nerve to ask if I had him wearing sagging pants with his ear pierced...and laughed when I told him that he was out of his mind to even think I would have anything like that going on in my house.
The irony is that he is a Police Captain in my former home town.
They are both only son's for their fathers. You would think they would have more vested in the sucessfulness of them attaining adulthood without major issues like police brutality and homicide.
Needless to say I'm doing what I need to do.
Like Khadija said
"Real life has real rules. One of them is that self-preservation is the first law. Any organism that won't bother to save itself will perish..."
Both of my sons will have that drilled into their minds.
In response to RiPPA, Lisa said, "The reality is that in AmeriKKKa there is no equality between blacks and whites in the criminal justice system. Knowledge of the law OR lack thereof is NOT the reason why black men and black male adolescents are being killed in cold blood.
My feeling is that you are presenting this notion that if black folks KNEW their rights and were able to articulate those rights that they would NOT be killed... I don't think that is true."
I believe that this is an accurate statement of reality. Unless you are prepared to shoot it out with the police, you are going to lose ANY confrontation with them out on the street. Knowing your rights has very little to do with this.
Knowing your rights only helps you avoid doing things that will help solidify whatever trumped up case the police construct around you. Of course, all of this only matters if you are still alive.
The point is to increase your chances of getting through the encounter with the police alive. Knowing your rights has nothing to do with that.
You can recite your rights to the police if you wish. They can then shoot you at their discretion. The officers that carry "drop guns" for such occassions will then place the drop gun your dead body and say they shot you in self-defense. End of story about your rights.
The bottom line is that "rights" only matter if you stay alive long enough to make it into a courtroom.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Lisa, I see what you are saying. I would never say that all black churches are the same since I have not attended all of them. I will say that all the ones that I attended I saw the same dynamics, hence the decision not to try another one at least for now. Even though I did not make a blanket statement about them I can see where one could jump to that conclusion from how I phrased my comments:)
A great discussion as always.
Color (law)
Color of is a legal term meaning "pretense or appearance of" some right; in other words, 'color of', as in 'color of law', means the thing colors (or adjusts) the law; however the adjustment made may either be lawful or it may merely appear to be lawful.
Color of law refers to an appearance of legal power to act but which may actually operate in violation of law. For example, though a police officer acts with the color of law authority to arrest someone, if such an arrest is made without probable cause the arrest may actually be in violation of law. In other words, just because something is done with the 'color of law', that does not mean that the action was actually lawful.
The Supreme Court has interpreted the United States Constitution to construct laws regulating the actions of the law enforcement community. Under 'color of law', it is a crime for one or more persons using power given to him or her by a governmental agency (local, state or federal), to willfully deprive or conspire to deprive another person of any right protected by the Constitution or laws of the United States.
Enforcement of 'color of law' does not require that any racial, religious, or other discriminatory motive existed. Criminal acts under color of law include acts within and beyond the bounds or limits of lawful authority. Off-duty conduct may also be covered if official status is asserted in some manner.
Color of law may include public officials and non-governmental employees who are not law enforcement officers such as judges, prosecutors, and private security guards.[1] Furthermore, in many states it is unlawful to falsely impersonate a police officer, a federal officer or employee, or any other public official or to use equipment used by law enforcement officers, such as flashing lights or a fake police badge. "Possession of a firearm also can enhance the penalty for false impersonation of a police officer."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_(law)
This is my take on the situation.
As to the question of why should black women care if black men are being annihilated. I know I care. I have a 16 year-old brother who I adore. I have young male cousins who I love and look out for. If one of them was murdered "legally" by the police I would want someone to fight with me on their behalf. I think that there is an emotional toll on black women when they loose their sons to murder and have no way or feel they have no way of ever getting justice because the murderer is in a position of authority.
That being said, black men have to step up to the plate. Real men fight. Real men take action and solve problems. It is not my job as a women to protect them. That is, as Khadija said, out of divine order. I believe in reciprocity. If black men expect us to fight for them, then they must be willing to fight for and protect us. I am always willing to come to the table but not without their full participation.
I find that there is a general disdain and mistrust of police that exists in certain communities. That's why some people are hesitant to file police reports and "snitch". I also know that in black low income communities, the police presence is thick and they are known to pick up random people. Also, what about the threat of violence in retaliation to those who snitch? Most people are not willing to risk their lives so they turn a blind eye to the criminal activity that they see.
I guess when it's asked if BM are worth saving, we are not talking about the group in general but the thug types who are involved in crime???
B/c like it was said, there are BM that don't dress that way/ act such, etc. And these guys for sure should be protected.
Theoretically, if we got rid of all the "thug" black guys, would the police-the kind who hate and abuse power-leave black guys alone? Leave anyone alone? I'm not so sure.
People need to understand that we are NOT PASSIVE. AND WE ARE NOT WEAK. WE HAVE A LOT OF CONTROL. It's not like before.
I think we SHOULD snitch on anyone that corrupts our environment.
I think we really need our own propaganda, infusing us with self-esteem to counter the negative images we are fed, even in a subtle way. This negativity makes us think "weak." And we need propaganda informing us the oppsosite, ie. of how much voting power we do have and how we should wield that weapon.
So we can CUT DOWN anyone white, black, green, purple, whether they're on the street or in office who dare harm our families and friends.
*Sigh*
That's why I'm lovin' the blog world...
I guess when it's asked if BM are worth saving, we are not talking about the group in general but the thug types who are involved in crime???
B/c like it was said, there are BM that don't dress that way/ act such, etc. And these guys for sure should be protected.
Theoretically, if we got rid of all the "thug" black guys, would the police-the kind who hate and abuse power-leave black guys alone? Leave anyone alone? I'm not so sure.
People need to understand that we are NOT PASSIVE. AND WE ARE NOT WEAK. WE HAVE A LOT OF CONTROL. It's not like before.
I think we SHOULD snitch on anyone that corrupts our environment.
I think we really need our own propaganda, infusing us with self-esteem to counter the negative images we are fed, even in a subtle way. This negativity makes us think "weak." And we need propaganda informing us the oppsosite, ie. of how much voting power we do have and how we should wield that weapon.
So we can CUT DOWN anyone white, black, green, purple, whether they're on the street or in office who dare harm our families and friends.
*Sigh*
That's why I'm lovin' the blog world...
Lisa, I think my answer though not directed to the questions posed by the Professor were general enough to bring some understanding.
Some of you may not understand just how vital it is to know your rights as a defense to encountering the police. But I'll take that as a failure in communication on my part.
Since this is a forum mainly interactive for women, allow me to help bring some understanding another way....
Lisa, you brought up the issue of rape earlier. Allow me to try and make sense of my expressed opinion.
Women get raped all the time; do they not? Sure they do. Rape or the raping of women is something that's not going to stop because we live in a male dominated society. Women being raped is not going to stop, just like racial profiling is not ever going to stop. Its not because racism is deeply ingrained into the fiber of our society.
So how does a woman prevent herself, or protect herself from becoming another victim of rape? Well, outside of the obvious like not walking down a dark alley (LOL), she's trained or educated on self defense. Is she not? You see, the aquisition of the knowledge of defense is really all she has to protect herself.
Its just like having knowledge of the law and what rights you are afforded. That knowledge is your only defense.
You don't blame the rape victim, and say that she should wear different and less provocative clothing do you? No never that! In spite of what a woman is wearing, as a human being, you'd like to think that her clothing, or just how enticing she may look shouldn't be an issue. Am I right?
Its the same thing when encountering the police. As a human being who happens to be Black, you shouldn't have to be subject to a different set of rules because of how you're perceived because of what you wear. The issue here isn't perception as much as it is just plain good old racism.
As a people, we need to get out of the mode of blaming the victim. The only way to affect change is to be honest and take the fight to the oppressor and not the slave.
I'll say it again...
EDUCATE YOURSELVES AND YOU CHILDREN
TEACH THEM ABOUT THEIR RIGHTS
TEACH THEM THAT ABSENCE OF THE LAW IS NO EXCUSE BEFORE THEY HAVE TO HEAR IT FROM A JUDGE. IN TEACHING THEM WHAT YOU ARE DOING IN EFFECT IS ARMING THEM WITH THE RIGHT DEFENSE FOR BATTLE. THIS IS AN ONGOING WAR AGAINST WHITE SUPREMACY; THAT IS THE ENEMY; REMEMBER THAT.
Its what the Black Panther Party of the 60's was about. And please believe me, they would not have carried their weapons openly the way they did if they didn't have knowledge of the law.
There was another community meeting this evening with one more scheduled tomorrow and people are rightfully asking why the coward crooked cop who quit has not been detained or questioned. He could just leave the country. Clearly HE knows he did something wrong because I don't recall any other situations where the officer left the force. After the protests are over I don't know what the people intend to do but this is big and many are hurting here. Northern Cali is looking like a bigger war zone than usual with this and the gang rape of a lesbian but the more press the better.
I have to agree with Rippa on the dress thing. I believe it more racism than anything else. Because all black men that has been kill have not been dress like thugs.
Lisa you are right as a Christian Black women it's my job as a believer and prayer warrior to fight for all in the black community.
I feel it's just as much a spiritual fight as it's a flesh fight. So, for me prayer is my strongest weapon but for you it could be your words and writing.
So, that's why I would never ever take that give up on them attitude. Thank you for allowing me to voice my opinion.
Thanks for this, Sis. There's a section in my play about death by police and I wanted to remember Oscar Grant in it.
Welcome MangoButtaQueen!
Thanks for adding to this conversation and sharing your personal experience!
I can imagine that children within the same household who have different fathers may be hearing different advice and different perspectives that may contradict the values or mandates established by their mother.
I hadn't considered the issues that occur when children have different fathers with differing approaches to relating to the police or viewing the police.
There are many issues that can arise when children are receiving mixed messages from the adults who influence their thinking.
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
___________________________________
Welcome back, Khadija!
Thank you for adding more to this important conversation!
I am waiting to hear some feedback from the group about your earlier comment:
"The massive self-slaughter among BM is what makes the police slaughter possible."
It is an important view that we can not overlook.
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
___________________________________
Welcome back, Pamela!
Thank you for that clarification!
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
___________________________________
Welcome Ebony Intuition!
Thanks for offering that information to this conversation!
Is there a correlation between the "color of the law" issue and the police brutality that is condoned throughout our country?Please share more.
How should black people who are facing police brutality address "color of law" issues when they are in confrontations with police to avoid being shot and killed? Please share more.
We are all aware that the law is being thwarted. I am trying to be sure that the readers understand how you feel the "color of law" issue should be applied in the solutions that are undertaken to confront police brutality.
Please feel free to share more.
We will all have a better grasp about your positions on the issues that have been raised in the comment section.
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
__________________________________
Welcome Tasha212!
Thanks for sharing your views!
I understand what you are feeling.
I don't believe that it is my responsibility as a woman to protect men either. This doesn't mean that I discard or discount black men.
I believe that black men should decide that the issues that proportionately reflect their OWN annhiliation should be a high priority.
I don't feel that most black men notice that they are being systematically annihilated. If they DO then they aren't producing a collective strategy to address it that is noticeable to the rest of us.
If there are black women who want to step into that battle with black men, to rescue them from annihilation, then that's their choice.
Khadija offered a salient point when she said:
"The massive self-slaughter among BM is what makes the police slaughter possible."
Some black women have chosen not to step in that battle because they perceive it is not their responsibility to save black men.
Some black women have chosen not to step in that battle because they believe that black men are not actively seeking to protect the interests and survival of black women.
I believe that those are valid reasons for not being engaged in the process of addressing the annihilation of black men.
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
___________________________________
Welcome Chaya!
Thanks for sharing your view points!
We need to make a clear distinction.
Law enforcement uses one set of criteria to decide which persons are deemed "thugs".
In their minds. this criteria has validity.
Is everyone who fits the police "thug" profile a criminal? No.
I would say to those men who feel wrongly profiled:
If you look like one, talk like one and hang with them, then don't act shocked if you are treated like one.
I am not saying it's right; I'm saying it's reality!
Law enforcement does not seem to operate with the mindset "not everyone who fits this criteria is a thug".
As I have said, law enforcement profiles "thugs" as:
1) blacks who are exhibiting certain behaviors, speaking with a certain vocabulary, exhibiting certain body language, and wearing certain clothing.
2) those who are in the presence of blacks who fit the description in #1.
This is not racial profiling but it is often perceived to be racial profiling.
The reason why it isn't racial profiling is because ALL blacks do not present themselves in the same manner, and do not act the same way, sound the same way, think the same way. ALL blacks are not part of the same class tier and they are not all from the same class tier.
This "thug" profile that law enforcement utilizes disproportionately stigmatizes blacks who are identified to be in the underclass and the lower class tiers.
This is why I continue to tie in the classism that is operating in police brutality cases.
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
_________________________________
Welcome back, RiPPa!
I sensed that you felt your views were not understood so you felt a need to repeat your viewpoints.
Allow me to give some clarification...
Your viewpoints were understood.
I just don't agree with them.
So far, no one in this conversation has expressed agreement of the views you have presented.
We can agree to disagree.
Repeating yourself doesn't elevate the conversation; It only serves to make the exchanges become redundant.
The questions that were posed were not posed out of a lack of understanding of your viewpoints.
The issue you bring forth about rape doesn't address the issue of classism that is being discussed here.
I find it interesting that you do not seem to place classism in the equation of police brutality against blacks...when it's undeniable.
I really don't think that classism is a periphery issue when we examine how police brutality plays out.
I have noticed that you mention clothing as though the issue we are posing in this discussion has to do with fashion freedom and individual expression.
That is not the issue being raised here at all.
The issue about law enforcement and their process of "thug identification" is not fashion...the issue is the presumption of class tier identification.
Law enforcement has continually operated with an acceptance of the animalization of the black underclass and the black lower class.
Let me explain it this way.
Fact #1:
There are certain behaviors, clothing, speech patterns, vocabulary, and body language that is associated with the black underclass AND the black lower class tiers.
Fact #2:
The black underclass AND the black lower class tiers have been animalized in our white supremacist society. This is why they were left to die and Condi was shopping for shoes during Katrina.
Fact #3:
In so many instances, I find that black people in the underclass AND the lower class tiers often believe that the way they are treated in society is the way ALL blacks are treated in society. They make this assumption due to the lack of recurring exposure they have had to the daily experiences of blacks in other class tiers.
I think it is important for me to mention...again...that you didn't answer the questions that were being posed to you.
Those questions were not being posed to you due to a lack of understanding on the part of the person who raised the questions.
They were being posed to you to elevate the conversation.
You have re-stated your viewpoints but you have not addressed the contributions that others have brought to this group dialogue.
These are the questions that were posed to you:
These are issues to think of.
What does that mean in terms of responding to the police when stopped?
What does it mean in terms of the hypervigilance young black men can experience at the hands of law enforcement?
What does it mean in ensuring that one's conduct in public is not directly correlated to the chances of being stopped and/or being targeted?
The reason why those questions were not answered by you could be that you don't have the answers. If that is the case, I will certainly accept that as a valid reason.
I grasp your feeling that blacks should know their rights, but I should mention to you that this specific conversation has a seasoned criminal attorney who has already commented.
This person disagreed with your view that the issue of police brutality is tied to a lack of knowledge about the law on the part of those who are being brutalized.
Your view seems to be that knowledge of the law would address police brutality. We can agree to disagree.
It is puzzling that you would form a belief that the police think blacks are stupid so that is the reason why they are being killed in cold blood.
Does anyone here actually believe that the police would not have pulled the trigger on Oscar Grant if he had started articulating knowledge of his rights?
The police didn't shoot Oscar in the back because they felt he was a stupid black person.
Oscar Grant and his crew were brought to the attention of BART officials for thug behavior - fighting on the train.
I am sorry that Oscar Grant lost his life while telling police he had a daughter, but I wish he would have thought about his daughter and considered the consequences of fighting on the train BEFORE the fighting even broke out.
Would he have been alive today if he had not been fighting on the train and if he had been sitting on the train with his friends? Maybe. Probably.
The police didn't kill Sean Bell because they felt he was ignorant of his rights.
The police aren't shooting black men in the back because they perceive them to be unintelligent or uninformed about the law.
The police are shooting blacks ...who are proportionately in the underclass and lower class tiers... because they have an intense hatred and a fear of them.
This is a fact and I don't hear too many black men presenting solutions to address it.
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
________________________________
Welcome Kasun!
Thanks for dropping in!
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
__________________________________
Welcome back, Annie!
Your views are always welcome!
This is not a blog forum where only one perspective is presented.
Many ladies who contribute to this forum have different life experiences and they openly share those life experiences.
I notice that other blog hosts do not encourage differing viewpoints. This think tank exists to showcase the diversity of our experiences and to affirm the differing thoughts we have as black women.
As for this issue about fighting for everyone...I feel differently about that.
I don't believe that as a Christian I must fight for everyone.
I don't believe that as a Christian that I must be unconditionally loyal to black people OR to the black community OR to anyone.
As a Christian, I am unconditionally loyal to Christ.
I don't extend unconditional loyalty to black men, to black women, to the black community...or to the black church.
I know other Christian ladies in this conversation may feel differently, however.
Many Christian women I have spoken to feel that accepting imbalanced emotional contracts is acceptable.
It isn't.
Many women I speak to offline believe that being Christian requires that they can not demand reciprocity in their relationships in their own race and in their own communities.
I feel that they are mistaught.
Many church ladies that I speak to take a passive approach with those who are offering exploitative relationship dynamics.
They tell me "I'll pray for so-and-so" while they permit themselves to be used.
I tell them "pray AND confront!" I also tell them "pray AND change your mindset!"
Prayer requires that we also take tangible steps to exhibit an evolved mind.
I do agree with you that for one person...the weapon they use may be writing and for another person, the weapon they use may be their intercession or their fasting.
I just don't condone the passive stance that many church ladies take who choose NOT TO assert themselves in their relationships or to examine their misplaced loyalties to the black community.
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
_________________________________
Welcome KellyBelle!
Thanks for dropping by!
There was a 12-year old black girl who was assaulted by police in her own backyard and Gina covered that story at her blog. I have linked to her post in my post.
It was reported that her father filed a complaint about that incident.
It was also reported that the police decided to retaliate for the complaint that was filed and they showed up at her school to harass her! Adults bullying a 12-year old?! Law enforcement?!! I don't believe every story I read on the internet but that is just outrageous!
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
Lisa you hit the nail on the head. Marching is not affective and had not been for years. I am an avid supporter of the 'start snitching movement.' Although I realize people do feel if they tell they will be retaliated against, I believe that if enough people stopped harboring criminals, they would not have to cower behind closed doors. I would rather tell and not support criminals and thugs rather than keep silent and let them terrorize me or my neighborhood. There are always two sides to a coin, but this shooting is pretty darned one sided.
At the risk of being un-PC, I would like to know why Grant was arrested in the first place.
Okay...I'm putting myself out there by saying this; but...
When I heard about that man being shot by the police I didn't even bother to read the article. I have become so detached from black men because I have very few positive interactions (in adulthood)with black men. I knew that somehow that man was a "troublemaker" and put himself in a bad situation. And you confirmed my feeling when you said he was fighting. I did feel sad for him when I heard the story; but it didn't go beyond that.
Why am I detached? Because I feel that black men have failed me and have failed the black community as a whole. I think the lower-class black men have failed because so many of them chose to be troublemakers and I feel that many of the "good black men" have failed because they won't do anything to put these no good men in check and to protect black women and children. This is how I see it from my vantage point.
Have I given up on Black men? Yes. The reason is so complex; but I will say this.
I am a young single black woman who has done everything that the Black community told me to do in order to be considered a "good black woman."
I went to school, stayed out of trouble, didn't have any children out of wedlock and supported black men through thick and thin even when they clearly preferred white women as mates, friends and lovers. I have towed the "party line" for most of my life and have not been rewarded with even the most basic things such as:
a loving committed relationship (with a black man)All of my loving, committed relationships have been with white men.
respect, protection or community
Because of this I have divorced myself from black men. It's not even something I did consciously. It first started maybe 10 years ago when I first started dating interracially. At the time I was having trouble finding ANY black men who wanted to date me (unless they were at the very bottom of the socio-economic ladder ie. homeless, ex-cons etc.) so I took a friend's advice and began dating some of those white and non-black guys who had been asking me out. After being treated one thousand times better by non-black men over a period of time I just have slowly stopped seeing black men as a part of myself. I just don't care about them anymore the way I use to. Black men have become strangers to me.
That said, it is wrong for anyone to kill another person without cause. But I look at this murder the same way that I would, a murder of an Asian man or white man. The murder of black men no longer has that emotional punch it once had. As I write this I know this is against everything I was taught to believe. 15 years ago I would have called a person saying this a "sell-out." But now, it's me who's saying this; but it's really how I feel. Things are so different now.
Lisa, I can't cover all of your points now because I am so dead tired. It's like 1:30am in France; but I do want to answer one set of your questions.
Lisa asked:
Does our collective inaction mean that we are ready to admit defeat? If black men are becoming extinct and if there is a concerted effort to annihilate them, should black women try to save them from extinction? Should we shrug and place our attention on forging political and economic ties with men of other races?
My answer:
I honestly don't know if our collective inaction or in my case -- indifference means defeat. I don't know. All I know is that I am getting nothing of value from Black men and I've never gotten anything of value from them as a group or even as individuals. I personally don't feel defeated; but I guess you're asking about Black people's collective defeat. Well, I think if black women survive and thrive then we will not be defeated. We can find (I'm getting ready to get flamed) other men to mate with AND call our own. That's what I'm doing. I feel like I'm in the fight of my life to make sure that I create alliances with people that will help me insure my well-being now and in the future. And that includes finding a quality mate. I have made the decision to search for only quality white men to date and eventually marry. I think that if I can find a quality white male to marry, it will increase my chances of a high quality life for myself and any children I may have. In my personal experiences it has been white men who have protected me and cared for me when Black men did not. This group of men (white men) have consistently shown me (in my everyday personal experiences) that they are willing to love and support the women who love and support them. I even had white men I didn't even know protect me from predators while black men sat idle. I must only support and attach myself to men who are willing to protect,provide for and support me regardless of history, past grievances etc. This is critical for my survival.
Welcome Shae-Shae!
Thanks for joining this conversation!
Oscar Grant encountered the police because (reportedly) there was a fight on the train and he was involved as well as the guys he was with.
Oscar Grant was a convicted criminal who had been incarcerated repeatedly. His mother said that he was making changes in his life.
Oscar Grant had a 4-year old child out of wedlock. His family members have told the media that Oscar planned to marry the mother of his child "in the near future".
Oscar Grant was a thug - or a recovering thug - depending on who you ask.
It is disturbing that a thug can become a marytr in death but this happens repeatedly among our people.
In many situations that involve the police killing a black criminal senselessly, we are often so angry over the cold-blooded murder that we so conveniently overlook that the deceased was a menace to society and a hindrance to the black community that he was part of.
We have a sense of outrage towards the murder than swallows up our outrage over the life that some of these killed criminals have led.
I don't want anyone who is reading this to be mistaken about what I am saying here.
Oscar Grant's life was not any less valuable than a person who was actively contributing to the uplift of society.
But...
To the police, Oscar Grant and his friends were viewed as thugs.
Law enforcement has an equation that they operate with:
THUG = DISPOSABLE TRASH
This equation is thrust in our faces repeatedly but we fail to really understand that this equation is not going to change.
This is why I continue to mention in this conversation why the "thug identification criteria" can not be ignored by black men.
That criteria is in full effect with law enforcement all over this country.
This is why it sounds ridiculous to me to hear black men who are being systematically annihilated tell me "who cares what any one thinks about what I look like or act like. I have the same rights as white men in this country".
You know what I say to that?
No. You. Do. Not.
Racism is real.
Classism is real.
Justice is not accessible to all.
Black male annihilation is in full effect.
Obama is President-elect and black male annihilation is still underway. Obama will do absolutely nothing to stop it. He can't give a rousing speech that will miraculously reconstruct societal frameworks that have been in place for longer than he's been alive.
Thank you for being willing to ask the difficult questions.
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
Hi Lisa,
Just throwing some thoughts out. I have to think more on this but:
I think white supremacy is a huge and powerful monster that swallows people whole.
Its a formidable enemy to fight and I think BM are currently the ones closest to its mouth and teeth.
In the olden days, like just post slavery when there were not much class differences among blacks, was there was still police brutality or lynching?
I wonder if the reason nowadays that police target the lower class is because they are (1) targetable -they are so reactive and emotional that they can be promted to whatever rise the police needs(2) they actually do have criminal backgrounds which makes it easier and seemingly more expendable (3) the police don't have to go after the upper class tier ones because they conform to the "game". i.e. they don't make waves?
These are all wonderings.
As for BW, I think we should care only because I don't know who's next in line after BM. lol. But not care in the sense that we fight their battles. Giving our all to someone -especially a menace to society- with no reciprocity is silly and even dangerous.
So perhaps it does go back to taking action against the wrong doer for the injustice done, but nevermind the victim (as morbid as that sounds)? But also, it should not rest solely on BW's shoulders.
But until everyone realizes that white supremacy is a consuming evil that will eat up everyone and eventually probably even itself -and stop hoping that perhaps group x will succeed which causes them to stay quiet about it because they 'almost made it', until everyone fights I don't know..
I really don't have an answer.
Welcome Beverly!
Thank you for sharing your personal feelings about why you would not be inclined to step into the battle to eradicate the annihilation of black men that is currently underway.
I think that there are many black women who share your feelings.
I really do.
There are many black women who do not care AT ALL if black men are annihilated in this country.
There are many black women who do care. There are women who have shared those feelings in this group conversation.
You mentioned the term "sell out".
I do not feel that black women who have detached themselves from black men are sell-outs.
A sell-out is actively assisting white supremacy! I don't think that being in an all-black setting is proof of NOT being a sell out. Those who are raping black women are sell-outs. Those who are selling drugs are sell-outs. Those who are looking the other way when their teen boys are gang-raping girls in their neighborhood are sell-outs. I could go on and on.
Several black women in this conversation have given valid reasons for not investing further in black men who they believe are not investing in or promoting the preservation of black women.
That has nothing to do with harboring bitterness or unforgiveness. It has everything to do with a valid demand of reciprocity.
For so many generations, it seems, black women were being conditioned to think that they could not demand reciprocity from black men. Now, many of them are waking up from the stupor of exploitation and subjugation and they are now fully conscious.
You have made a decision to partner with white men and you have found that is a decision that is fruitful for you.
I have said at this blog that I expect to marry a white man. Surprisingly, I received email from a few white men who lurk at this blog. That statement doesn't have anything at all to do with racial preference, as far as I am concerned. It has everything to do with statistics! I don't have a race preference!
Black men are only 5% of this country's population! Out of the 5% segment, all of those black men are not heterosexual. Of the heterosexual ones, all are not husband-material!
You said something that I feel is very relevant.
"Well, I think if black women survive and thrive then we will not be defeated. We can find (I'm getting ready to get flamed) other men to mate with AND call our own. That's what I'm doing."
Many black women do not know that they can do that. They haven't been given permission from the black community to feel that way so they believe that they AREN'T ALLOWED to feel that way.
You said:
"I must only support and attach myself to men who are willing to protect,provide for and support me regardless of history, past grievances etc. This is critical for my survival."
I agree that we should not give support that is not reciprocated and we should not uphold imbalanced emotional contracts. I speak about that quite frequently at this blog.
Thanks for sharing these views.
Many women would not have had the courage to speak as truthfully as you have.
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
________________________________
Welcome Miriam!
Thank you for presenting some of your thoughts.
You said:
"As for BW, I think we should care only because I don't know who's next in line after BM. lol."
Who's next is determined by who is actively supporting those who are being annihilated.
Black men are being targeted for annihilation. This is an undeniable fact.
There is a strategy in place to remove them from American society completely. We only need to open our eyes to see this clearly.
There are billions being invested in removing them from society. Look at the explosion of the prison industry.
They are being targeted for extinction by the age of 10 or 11. We usually begin to see an increase in murders of black boys by police at the age of 12 and up.
Anyone who is against the annihilation of black men will be targeted next.
Those who have a vested interest in completing this annihilation process will begin to attack and destroy anything or anyone or any group that prevents that process from reaching completion. That's what I believe.
I think that many black women who say that they will stand by black men no matter whathave not counted up all of the costs. They need to do that. Quickly.
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
Lisa said:
"...you would not be inclined to step into the battle to eradicate the annihilation of black men that is currently underway..."
Honestly, I don't see it as a concerted effort to annihilate black men. What I see is a group of men, mostly lower-class who are putting themselves in situations that jeopardize their own lives. But I will assume that what you say is a fact for the sake of the argument. If there is in fact a concerted effort to annihilate black men, that makes me very sad. When you said that, I thought about the men in my family who are quality. But even if there is a concerted effort to annihilate black men, I do not have the resources to invest in a group of men who have not invested in me. I know I'm being a little redundent; but I know what I'm saying is very controversial so I want be very specific, so that there is no misunderstanding.
If the marriage rate of Black women with Black men was 90% or even 70% and if black men were providers and the out of wedlock birth rate was more like 25% instead of 70% I would probably not be indifferent. If black men were celebrating the beauty and value of black women in mass numbers then I would use my resources to help them. Right now, I cannot expect anything from black men so I cannot take the meager resources I have to fight for them.
I want to clarify that I think annihilating any group of people is horrific. The thought of black men being annihilated makes me want to cry. But it is the same tears that I had for the people of Rwanda. It's a general sadness for the cruelty of humanity.
On the other hand if black men showed me as a group that they were willing to love, protect, support and provide for Black women regardless of skin color, hair texture and % of Euro mixture I would throw all of my resources behind them.
This is what would need to happen:
Marriage rates would need to rise to at least 70%.
Out of wedlock births would need to drop significantly.
Black men would need to financially, emotionally and socially support their children and the mothers of their children.
Black men would need to affirm the beauty and value of black women above all other women.
Black men would need to protect black women from predators.
"Good" black men would need to come out against (in masse) other black men who refuse to support, protect and provide for black women.
If the above conditions were met, I would put all of my resources behind black men. But since they are not being met I will not use my resources for them because I know I would not get any return on my investment.
Lisa, as I have mentioned before, you always make me think about things I have never considered before such as the fact that if black men are being targeted for annihilation then anyone who supports them will also be annihilated.
That thought never crossed my mind. But when I think about it, that would be true. This is the way the world works. For example, people who support Hamas are targeted by Isreal. Or people who support "terrorists" are targeted by the U.S. and NATO. I guess like another poster here said, black women may be next.
This whole situation just makes me sad.
Rev. Lisa,
I'm reminded about something from your post on emotional discipline:
"We must begin to remind ourselves that our ancestors understood and valued discipline. Our ancestors valued mental discipline, emotional discipline, verbal discipline, sexual discipline, and financial discipline."
My reply:
This seems to be lost to segments of a whole generation or more of black people.
Black people of earlier generations had discipline on all these fronts becaust they related directly to their effectiveness in a white supremacist society, and being "off" their game was impermissible.
Moreover, their moral authority in fighting white supremacy depended upon their ability to discipline themselves and have self-control.
I can think of sayings relating to this. Black parents telling their children to be careful how they act and present themselves in public, because if they mess up, they will not be excused in the way Becky or Jason might be.
Rev. Weems wrote about this recently, in a blog discussion of shopping at a local store, her memories of shopping in white downtown under Jim Crow, and how she discussed the "shopping while black" syndrome with her.
I can think of black parents telling their children to be careful of who they associate with: "Lie down with dogs, you will pick up fleas," or one from my Caribbean immigrant mother and grandmother: "Friends might bring you go, but they might not bring you back."
So let's consider this in light of the murder case. Here is a link discussing the protests and rioting: http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2009/01/08/18559668.php.
Rioters attacked local businesses and damaged the cars of anonymous people, complete strangers who had nothing whatsoever to do with the killing. Marching is not appropriate if it is not done with discipline.
Watts? Newark? Time and time again, protesting not in an effective way, but in a way which will not gain support for the cause.
We are responsible for the images we convey, and the current love affair for "thug" culture does not help any.
Thug culture is driven by nihilism and dysfunction. This is the image of black culture in the mind of many.
When black folks buy into it, they support it. When they dress up in its accoutrements, they buy into it. When they glamorize it and act as though thugs are some sort of modern day "freedom fighter," they buy into it.
When artists are willing to compromise and participate in it, they support it and the annihilation of themselves and other blacks.
Yet, black women seem to be blamed exclusively for laying the seeds for this thug culture to germinate: single mothers are vilified as raising angry, dysfunctional sons. Yet, what are black men's responsibilities in this? No one seems to talk about this.
This has been happening not only on black women's watch, but black men's watch too.
Let us examine the implications of legalized murder of black men and black male adolescents on the emotional well-being of black women.
• This affects me emotionally because I have father and brother. When I hear stories like that I always think it could happen to my father and brother if they were at the wrong place at the wrong time in the US. I never thought it would happen to me because I almost never heard cases of young women being targeted by the police until recently. I try to avoid reading too many stories like that because it makes me uncomfortable. I wouldn’t watch the Oscar Grant video because I feared I wouldn’t get the image out of my mind and I’d spend the rest of my day ruminating over its meaning and wondering if I’d face something like that when I leave the house for work.
Let us discuss how the annihilation of black men is part of advancing white supremacy and white patriarchy.
• It’s advancing white supremacy because white supremacists don’t want to see black men (and other people if color) in the US. Annihilating black men is one of their ways of trying to achieve their goals. When I think about things like this it makes me feel like white supremacy in this country is permanent because it has gone on for so long. It surprises me that generation after generation of black Americans has not developed self-defense/self preservations mechanisms that allow them to function in this country. I’m speaking as a 24 year old who has read books like the Miseducation of the Negro and others that have explicitly stated what the problem is and potential solutions.
Let us analyze why this annihilation strategy continues to succeed in all sections of our nation and outline the annihilation strategy that has advanced in the last fifty years through the criminal justice system and law enforcement entities.
• In the US people need money to exist/survive. Money is needed to buy the basics like shelter, food, clothing, sometimes water, etc... It is part of the American culture that the majority of American citizens have accepted. A lot black males (and females) in the poor residential areas don’t have the best of those basic resources I mentioned earlier because there are few jobs. White Americans are said to be collectively wealthier than black Americans and dominate most of the institutions. These institutions reflect white American interests. The America is a white country fantasy is something a lot of people want to hold on to. Whatever negative things that happen to blacks (especially the black underclass) is not a national American emergency, so they are neglected. I don’t believe a people can survive without the backing of strong social institutions/networks/communities. Especially if they live next to another group of people who do have strong social institutions/networks/communities. It is even worse if most of the members of the stronger community are generally hostile towards others that don’t look like them. I think the police who are sent to black residential areas to stop crime and to make sure the crime does not spread to other places.
I think the suggestions that Lisa made are good. I also agree with what Pioneer Valley Woman said about starting at home and in ones local community. I personally only look out for myself, family members, friends and some members of my community I’m close to. They are all important to me.
Thank you Lisa for writing this wonderful piece. I rarely come across discussions like these in other black blogs and forums.
I co-sign Beverly's comment from 5:44 am. Let me focus on one part of her comment. She said, "Honestly, I don't see it as a concerted effort to annihilate black men. What I see is a group of men, mostly lower-class who are putting themselves in situations that jeopardize their own lives."
I agree. I believe that Whites profit from "servicing" our dysfunction through various social-service, court, and prison-based industries. I believe that, in general, White America won't be sorry to see large numbers of BM disappear.
But I don't think they're on a program to "annihilate" BM. It's more a matter of bad-intentioned indifference to BM's self-annihilation. Just look at who's doing the bulk of the killing of BM: other BM!
I believe Lisa was correct when she said,
"Fact #3:
In so many instances, I find that black people in the underclass AND the lower class tiers often believe that the way they are treated in society is the way ALL blacks are treated in society.
They make this assumption due to the lack of recurring exposure they have had to the daily experiences of blacks in other class tiers."
I didn't want to pull out the "I work in the court system" card, but it has become relevant to this discussion. There IS a pattern about what happens to whom.
A lot of BW say that they're emotionally invested in this topic because they envision their BM brothers, sons, etc. being murdered by the police. However, the reality is that unless your BM loved one is a thug/bum or LOOKS like a thug/bum, the odds of this happening are dramatically reduced.
It's still possible, but much less likely. This is similar to what type of person is framed by the police/prosecutors. There ARE patterns regarding the type of person that gets framed. The police generally only frame common criminals: i.e,."thugs."
There are practical reasons for this. First, it's harder to frame a gainfully employed, middle class person. Juries tend to give such persons the benefit of any doubts.
Second, there is a heightened risk of effective retaliation if one screws over a middle or above class person. Such persons tend to sue, AND effectively pursue other avenues of professional retaliation (lodging complaints against one's professional license, being in a position--due to personal networks--to adversely affect the offending individual's work environment, etc.).
Let me give just one example of how people notice and respond to class tier. One of my friends has a college-age daughter who got into a scuffle with some college Negro who accosted her at a bar. They both filed battery complaints each other.
When the case was first called, both college students, their lawyers, and their Black middle-class parents stepped up to the bench. The White judge took one look at the college kids, and their Black middle class parents, and said, "What in the world are young people like you doing in a place like this?!"
It wasn't the presence of private attorneys that caused that reaction. Sometimes, poor families scrape together the money to hire private attorneys. I've observed how the defendants in such cases are perceived as simply "Sheniquas" and "DeShawns" who happen to have private lawyers.
From what my friend said, the judge was primarily looking over the college students and their parents. He didn't have that sort of reaction to anybody else who's case was called before theirs. Everybody else looked like a "Sheniqua" and "DeShawn." From her description, the judge looked quite bored and only perked up for their case.
[*For the curious*--Both battery complaints were dismissed. The arrest was expunged from my friend's daughter's personal history.]
There is usually a HUGE difference in appearance between Sheniquas, DeShawns, and people who look like they lead productive lives. Even if nobody says this out loud (like that White judge did), people in various institutions see the difference and respond accordingly.
It's not just the police, prosecutors, and the court system that make decisions based upon an individual's class tier. Hospitals also make decisions based upon class tier.
I'll say it the blunt way: Hospitals give normal, decent, working people the benefit of the doubt when deciding whether or not to call child welfare services. This comes up when people bring their kids in with injuries that are attributed to accidents.
I've seen this from the court angle. Middle class and above parents generally have to do some pretty weird or severe things before their children are scooped up by child welfare services.
Hospitals are quick to call child welfare on Black underclass and lower class parents. I also have friends who are medical professionals who have confirmed the observation from their end in the hospitals.
Hospitals don't screen normal, decent, working women for illicit drugs when they come in to give birth. Welfare recipients get routinely screened for drugs by hospitals when they come in to give birth.
Black folks want to act like everything is the same for every Black person. No, it's not. Certain problems, experiences and issues are concentrated among the Black underclass and lower class.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Welcome back, Beverly!
Thank you for your candid thoughts in this conversation!
I believe that the annihilation of black men from society is systematic because it begins in elementary school with the expulsion of black boys.
Black boys are removed from the academic setting more often than any other group. Black boys report that teachers do not smile at them or engage with them positively in the way that they do with other students.
I don't feel those black boys are imagining this.
Black boys are often placed in remedial classes and presumed to be behind intellectually than other groups because they tend to become socially-withdrawn in the classroom setting due to the alienation they feel.
By the age of 9-12, black boys in the UC/LC tiers (underclass and lower class tiers) are being recruited by criminals in their neighborhoods.
The majority of black boys in UC/LC tiers do not have their fathers in the home. The absence of paternal nurture is emotionally-detrimental to black boys - while most black men who are fatherless try to "play it off" as though it was no big deal that they spent their lives fatherless.
By the age of 18, I will estimate that at least HALF of black boys in the UC/LC tiers have disciplinary records in school AND have been involved with police.
Functionally-illiterate and with a police background, black teens in the UC/LC tiers can not enter the employment market to gain skills. This segment usually can not enter trade school programs - if functionally-illiterate. This creates the criminal entry cycle that continues well into adulthood.
The criminal industry becomes the main economic source for those who are functionally illiterate and unable to enter the job market.
Once black boys in the UC/LC tiers enter the criminal justice system, the cycle of their removal from society begins. They enter for petty offenses are released and re-enter. Eventually, they are killed by other black men/black male adolescents or killed by police or they self-destruct with substance abuse.
This is the systematic annihilation of black men in UC/LC tiers that I see happening in this country. This process starts in elementary school and is full-blown by the age of 18 or 19 when they are in the criminal justice system and therefore, unable to compete in the marketplace in the way other male groups are who do not have criminal records.
I realize that there are success stories of guys who were criminals and became successful and productive. They are NOT the majority of black men in UC/LC tiers with criminal records.
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
Welcome back, (Rev.) Pioneer Valley Woman!
You have made some excellent points!
It is baffling to me that every time the discussion turns to exhibiting discipline and the need to change our thinking and our behaviors, someone shows up here and brings up "like white people" arguments. Their assumption is that anything that involves change for constructive progress is an attempt to be "like white people"
This is just so ignorant that I can't even begin to unpack that mentality.
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
_________________________________
Welcome Dotiez!
Thank you for finding this blog!
I appreciate your perspectives and hope you will return often!
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
__________________________________
Welcome back, Khadija!
Thank you for sharing concrete examples!
I sense that there is still a lot of denial that many black people cling to.
You said:
"Black folks want to act like everything is the same for every Black person. No, it's not. Certain problems, experiences and issues are concentrated among the Black underclass and lower class."
This is absolutely true!
Unfortunately, it is a truth that has not sunk in for many of our people.
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
The comment below was submitted by Divalocity at 3:51 PM in the comment section "Black Women and The Necessity of Emotional Discipline" but pertains to this post and has been pasted in by the blog administrator.
Divalocity said...
This is a very important topic and what we are now seeing are the consequences of our inaction as a community. Our community is now and has always be judged by our actions and lack thereof. Black children are a reflection of the thoughts and actions of their parent(s), there is no way that anyone can deny this fact. Black men must now claim the role of victor instead of maintaining the role of victim.
I watched this tape on Youtube and I wondered what had happened and why were these young men being retained by the police? That reality was left out and why? Is it because a huge amount of sympathy and anger could be aroused against law enforcement and for their disdain for minorities or was it simply used to sensationalize the incident? Anyway you look at it this young man did not have to die in the manner in which he did.
The slaughter of black men and women whether it is self-induced against each other or at the hands of law enforcement will not end unless we muster the courage and the will to honestly address this catastrophic crime epidemic among black men and youth. If not, many more innocent men and teens will die because a policeman has to do his job and no one knows if the victim is armed or not. Clearly he was not, as of this consequence questions will be answered after the fact.
There is no denial to this truth that a higher incidence of crime in black neighborhoods means that the police activity there will be intensified leading to the usage of force. Police don’t arrest black men for sport, nine times out of ten a crime had been committed by the individual. If the perpetrator happens to be killed in the process, then that is a consequence of his choice and his actions! And this cop should have known the difference from a taser and a gun, which I’m sure he did. Racism and hatred is nothing more but the thoughts and hearts of the individual, so as a man thinks so is he.
We can change the perception that everyone has of Black people by demanding that every incident of black-on- black violence ends with a criminal prosecution. Treat it the same way we treat white-on-black crime. Make it socially unacceptable to stop perpetuating violence. Start demonstrating around any and every scene of violence and demand the witnesses come forth. Abandon that stupid and idiotic ghetto law of not snitching! When some of us start acting like we care then the rest of the nation will follow suit.
Being the mother of one son, the grandmother to one and the aunt of many nephews, I will do whatever it takes to protect and help the young ones. It is my duty as a woman to perform this debt to help the children of others, this debt is far greater than that of the mother.
As black women we carry the weight of future generations and what we have now is our collective failure of this responsibility. We may bless or curse each succeeding generation, right now this generation has been cursed. How will we reverse this curse? The thoughts of several black women have not advanced this generation of black children especially those who have become men. We can not look at the results of our posterity with great pride and thankfulness we now look at them with disdain, disgust and distrust.
Even though many of us now think of ourselves as a success, the reality is we are no more of a success if those in our community are not.
When we learn to move beyond just being a skin color then we can become a people who realize that they are more than what they and others believe they are.
The hard truth is that violent crime is more than likely to have a black perpetrator than a white or Hispanic man. Most black people are law-abiding citizens and the police presence is greatly needed when you live in a crime infested area.
If you are the parent of younger children the time is now to end this cycle of self-annihilation. It has to start in the home before it can ever be reversed! All children are a reflection of their parent(s) a child can not desire to succeed unless he sees the parent(s) doing so or someone who has positive influence on their life.
Even though our communities are filled with children being raised in the home of a single parent woman, in no way does that mean the child will become a failure unless the mother does not provide the best example to the child.
When asked can we or are we willing to save black men is hard. Many of us have given up the “ we are our brothers keeper” a long time ago and started looking out for self not realizing the damaging effects this type of mind-set would produce.
We must realize that as black women we are the bearers of triple burdens, we bear our own burdens, the burden of posterity and that of the entire black community whether we like to believe it are not.
It’s something we can’t run from no matter how hard we try to or whom we marry. The reality is that many of us are tired of holding up the community when black men continually do nothing. By helping others we are helping ourselves and no one will refuse aid that is so greatly needed but what will we receive in return by men who are too far gone?
There is great joy in being of service to our community even though some of the recipients are not grateful. It’s complicated because in today’s world black women alone can no longer save the race.
Welcome Divalocity!
Thanks for stopping by and adding more to this discussion.
You made a few statements that I want to respond to below.
You said:
"Police don’t arrest black men for sport, nine times out of ten a crime had been committed by the individual."
There are some instances when police have stopped a black person for no reason at all.
The majority of those who are in confrontations with police fit the "thug" identification profile or they were in the presence of those who fit the "thug" identification profile or they were involved in behavior or activity that created police attention.
You provided concrete action steps when you said:
"Start demonstrating around any and every scene of violence and demand the witnesses come forth. Abandon that stupid and idiotic ghetto law of not snitching! When some of us start acting like we care then the rest of the nation will follow suit."
As much as I hear people SAY that they care about crime in their communities, every time I go into the 'hood, I see crime happening right in my face and no one bats an eye. I see men following behind women and teen girls with verbal assaults. Sometimes men are groping black women and black teen girls who are passing by - and no one calls the police.
I see open drug sales occurring from windows of cars.
I see men loitering in front of business establishments holding their crotches and being menancing and engaging in lewd behavior.
Residents walk by them and continue on their way.
I am constantly encountering instances of noise assault.
I don't see the residents of these neighborhoods expressing outrage over any of that!
It's viewed as a norm. If they don't care enough to be outraged and to develop a community strategy, then why do they want those who don't live there to care? I don't understand that.
You made a statement that reflects what many black women believe,
I don't agree with that statement but I know it is commonly accepted by many black women.
You said:
"As black women we carry the weight of future generations and what we have now is our collective failure of this responsibility."
It IS NOT the responsibility of the black woman to carry the weight of future generations. Black women believed this and they upheld this imbalanced emotional contract.
It is interesting that white men see themselves as protectors of all that whites hold dear...yet black women somehow believe that they are the ones who must protect the black community.
What are black men (as a collective) actively protecting in the black community right now?
Do the black women who believe black women are responsible ask themselves this question?
Khadija wrote a post that outlines many reasons why black women must begin to leave all-black UC/LC environments as an act of self-preservation.
Here's the link to her post:
http://muslimbushido.blogspot.com/2008/12/all-colored-people-that-want-to-go-to.html
You said:
"Even though many of us now think of ourselves as a success, the reality is we are no more of a success if those in our community are not."
I agree with this sentiment... in part.
Black women are not the ones who are responsible for the deterioration of the infrastructure of the black community. They are only partly responsible for the deterioration of the black family by being part of perpetuating the scores of illegitimate black children that have created a permanent underclass and expanding lower class.
The puzzling thing is that many black women who are clearly in the UC/LC class tiers believe that they are middle class. You will almost never hear any blacks in the UC/LC tiers acknowledging that class identification.
I need to make another important point.
The success of the black community does not rest on the shoulders of black women. This is the thinking of the grave digger.
Please feel free to read my post, "The Gold Digger and The Grave Digger".
You said:
"When asked can we or are we willing to save black men is hard. Many of us have given up the “ we are our brothers keeper” a long time ago and started looking out for self not realizing the damaging effects this type of mind-set would produce."
Black women do not have to take any responsibility for black men that black men are not accepting for black women. Black women do not have to rescue black men until black men start rescuing black women. I am not speaking about abandoning the notion of being our brother's keeper. I am speaking about the NECESSITY of demanding reciprocity.
You said (in part):
"By helping others we are helping ourselves..."
I agree in part. By helping others, we have also enabled others to remain irresponsible and unaccountable. By helping others, we have also allowed ourselves to be used, and exploited and played for fools. By helping others, we have also perpetuated the culture of allowing adults to be "takers" while we remain in the role of "givers".
We have to look at all costs of this mentality of believing that we must be givers to those who will not empower us or return in FULL MEASURE that which we give. Again, I am stressing the NECESSITY of demanding reciprocity. When we don't demand reciprocity, we continue to permit our subjugation and exploitation among our own people.
You said something that is important for me to respond to:
"We must realize that as black women we are the bearers of triple burdens, we bear our own burdens, the burden of posterity and that of the entire black community whether we like to believe it are not."
We do not have to be the bearers of triple burdens. WE HAVE A CHOICE TO MAKE!
We decide which emotional contracts we will uphold and which ones we will refuse. No one hands the black woman a contract to make HER the burden bearer of the black community any longer. That day is over. It is done.
I encourage you to read "The Free Agency of The Black Woman" as well as "Disbanding The Cult of Pain".
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
I have never nor will I ever be a triple burden bearer. Other people may believe this and try to put me in that category solely because I am a bw. That does NOT mean I have to play that role. I absolutely refuse to. I will deal with my own decisions. If I was a parent I would be responsible for my children until they got grown or for some unforeseen reason, like health issues where they could not work, then I would take care of them as an adult. That is as far as anyone should take responsibility. I dare anyone to come in my face and say that I have the burden of the entire black community on my back. There is a good chance that I will scream LIAR right in their face with no shame. I know today if I started talking that stuff to my parents, especially my Dad were he still here, I would be read the riot act starting with the phrase 'Why are you letting people use you like that?', etc. as the rant continued. My Dad would have an absolute fit, especially if I was dealing with an irresponsible man. However they and all the people that know me understand that I have a lot of common sense. They will never hear those words come out of my mouth other than to express my total rejection of that mindset.
Hi Divalocity,
I want to respond to some of your points.
Diva said:
We must realize that as black women we are the bearers of triple burdens, we bear our own burdens, the burden of posterity and that of the entire black community whether we like to believe it are not.
My response:
Diva I once believed something similar to this and that belief system nearly destroyed my life. As a young woman I was targeted by black men who used this belief system to exploit me and my resources. That belief system caused me so much unnecessary distress. It makes me shutter to think of all the things I tolerated because of this belief system. Now that I no longer believe that I am the "burden bearer for black people" I am free, healthy and thank GOD happy. Releasing that belief system has allowed me to build healthy relationships with people who respect ME and are willing to (as Lisa says) reciprocate. The only burden I carry now is my own personal burden (providing for myself, financially, emotionally, physically etc.)
Diva said:
It’s something we can’t run from no matter how hard we try to or whom we marry.
My response:
Diva, with all respect I understand how you feel because I once believed all of these things. But as I have lived and experienced, what I have realized is that I am not required by God or anyone else to carry the burden of other people. Each human being is required to carry his/her own burden. Yes we can help others; but we CANNOT carry that burden for them. And if we do help, that help must be reciprocal.
A word on marriage...I think I understand your line of thinking; but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. You believe that black women who chose to marry white men (for whatever reason) may be trying to but cannot "escape" their responsibility to bear the burden of black men, black community and black children. Is that right? Well, I once believed something similar to this so let me add this, I do not believe that I HAVE a responsibility to bear anyone's burden regardless of what color man I marry. Even if I married a black man I still would not be the "triple burden bearer." I will not carry anyone else's burden, ever again. I am not responsible for other people's children or other people's burdens. Another thing I have noticed is that some Black women who are single mothers with no financial, emotional or social support from the fathers of their children expect single, childless women like me to take responsibility for their children, yes even their grown children. They always talk about "our" children when there is trouble. I have had friends who will not ask their deadbeat ex-husbands to pay child support but want to mooch off of me. They want me to help their children and use my resources, time and money to better their children's lives. This is something that I did before but I've now stopped because those children are not my responsibility and I have to look out for me first and right now my resources are limited. I have been very careful about the type of men I chose to associate with and I will be very careful about the type of man I have children with. I expect every black woman to do the same. If a black woman has failed to mate wisely and/or refuses to hold her father's children accountable I cannot pick up the slack for her (as in carrying her burden). She and black men need to take responsibility for their mating choices. I took responsibility for my own life by NOT having children under unfavorable circumstances, other women need to do the same.
Diva said:
The reality is that many of us are tired of holding up the community when black men continually do nothing.
My response:
Yes, this is exactly right.
Diva said:
By helping others we are helping ourselves and no one will refuse aid that is so greatly needed but what will we receive in return by men who are too far gone?
There is great joy in being of service to our community even though some of the recipients are not grateful.
My response:
I agree that there is joy in being of service to one's community; but it is never a joy when that community neglects you or exploits you.
A final word on community. Many Black people mistakenly believe that all black people belong to this monolithic community where we are all suffering. We do not. I refuse to live in or belong to communities where there is widespread suffering. I simply refuse. A matter of fact I refuse to suffer.
In 1966, in that very city of Oakland .California where Oscar Grant was murdered..Three Black men
put on Leather Jackets and Black Berets. They carried shotguns,law books and tape recorders..sometimes cameras to address the very problem of Police
Brutality..Those brothers were Huey P. Newton, Bobby Seale and Bobby Hutton..They became the Black Panther Party for Self defense. They patrolled their neighborhoods, they observed Police stops and they scared the hell out of the power structure until The power structure changed the laws so that they couldn't patrol the streets anymore with loaded weapons. This was an example of Black men taking action to do something about police bruatlity. Maybe we should do this now..(Without the guns)Patrol our own neighborhoods, police ourselves.It's not that far fetched.
Welcome back, Pamela!
Thank you so much for helping to spread the liberation message!!
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
___________________________________
Welcome back, Beverly!
I am thankful that there are women who can share their experiences about how they dismantled the mentality of the black woman who is the "burden bearer".
I do understand why there are black women in the church who believe this. They read the scripture "bear one another's burdens" and "love always forgives".
They don't understand that this teaching does NOT give license to accepting subjugation and exploitation.
Many church ladies read the text "bear ONE ANOTHER'S burdens" (which speaks to reciprocity) and they actually think it means "bear other people's burdens".
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
_________________________________
Welcome Keith!
It's good that some brothas have joined in this conversation!
I would like to see black men taking ownership of the black community.
I believe that there is a certain mentality that a moral and responsible father passes on to his son. A father who embraces responsibility will instill in his own son an obligation to community, to the women and the children of that community.
We have so many fatherless black boys now.
Who is instilling within them a sense of being the protectors of women and children, and being the keepers of the gate?
I mention this and usually , it is the fatherless black men who look at me blankly.
Black men like my brother nod in agreement. They have been conditioned to understand that mandate.
My father required that my sister and I respect my older brother as a man of integrity and honor when he reached manhood. There were many rites of passage that my brother was given by my father.
That requirement of having to respect my brother did not come without a mandate placed upon my brother by my father.
I would see my father sitting with my brother, and I would sometimes feel a bit nosy and overhear my father coaching him and mentoring him about manhood issues.
I once heard my father say to my brother when he was a teenager:
"I will require your sisters to honor you and to show you respect but you must BECOME worthy and REMAIN worthy of honor and respect in their eyes."
My brother accepted that mandate. He has never been dishonored by his sisters in his entire adult life.
My brother is so exceptional that I have never had a reason to think less of him as a man. Never.
I know that there are many black men who feel that most black women do not esteem them...I must ask them: "Just what have you done for the black community that has earned the respect of black women?"
I posed this question to a guy at church and he said:
"I am educated. I am a working man. I have a home. I take care of my family."
I was stunned that he actually believed that put him in the "exceptional man" category. (I didn't tell him I was stunned, however. I just listened.)
In my mind, a man is supposed to work and is supposed to provide for the children he brought into this world.
From the examples I saw growing up, doing THAT hardly qualifies as exceptional behavior. In fact, that is the bare minimum of a man's duty just to be qualified to classify himself as a man.
One problem I see is that far too many black men want to compare themselves with the degenerates of the black community, and "grade" themselves according to whatever the lowest of the low are doing.
I am glad you mentioned the Black Panthers.
I would like to see black men getting in the streets (armed or unarmed) and protecting the women and the children from harm. It is out of divine order for men not to be protectors and providers.
When the scandal went down in the Garden of Eden, God spoke to Adam first...not Eve!
Genesis 3:9
But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?"
God gave Adam responsibility and accountability BEFORE He presented Eve to him.
Don't let start preaching that entire chapter in this comment section! (smiles)
I applaud men who will take charge.
One thing I have noticed in the mentality of white guys I have been involved with is that they had a "dominator" mentality about staking their place in the world, which is largely due to their white supremacist conditioning.
As far as I am concerned, a brotha has not even become a true man until he is demonstrating that he is FULLY committed to influencing the destiny of his race.
To all brothas out there, I will repeat what my father said to my brother when he was 16 years old: You must BECOME worthy and REMAIN worthy of their respect and honor as a man.
Brothas, if your father never told you, now my father has told you.
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
__________________________________
Welcome La~Incognita!
Thank you for dropping by and for wanting to share in this group exchange!
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
(I really need to get some work done but I couldn't let this discussion pass me by! So I'll try to keep my thoughts in order.)
WRT Race/Class issues intersecting with violence against black men: yes, yes, and yes. There is no doubt that the mythology of the Big Black Brute plays a huge part in all of these shooting events. In police interactions with the black community, several stereotypes are at play impacting how they react to gender, sexuality and class level.
I think these stereotypes hold such power because they're drummed into cadets at the academy; so, from the first, we have a state sponsored, militarized institution that traffics in racist and classist imagery. There's a structural thing happening here that I'm still not sure how to fight.
This is my roundabout way of broaching the idea that we can also see these shootings as part of a larger sociopolitical fabric - one which authorizes state-supported murder against undesirable populations as a method of control. And it's interesting to see that they're working.
What have these shootings taught us, what are they forcing us to do? We must alter *our* appearance, *our* behavior, *our* way of speaking, *our* geographic location. It's like we're saying 'We need to clean up or The Man is gonna kill us!' To me, it's like we have to follow the rules of *their* game. Not that I know what rules we should be playing, in the first place.
(This is also not to say that I disagree with some of the ideas here about the impact 'thuggery' has on our communities. But I'm not comfortable with my agreement, by any means.)
I'm not quite sure what I'm saying, yet, but I'm wondering about the relationship between Power and the Individual, and how these narratives of police control and repressive violence have on all of us. Anyway, this was a provocative thread. Thanks for it!
(And I wish I had some thoughts to add on the black women rescuing black male topic but my own issues with black men make me an unreliable and useless commenter.)
Welcome Ding!
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on these issues. You have shared a few points that I believe many people who are reading have given much thought to.
You said:
"This is my roundabout way of broaching the idea that we can also see these shootings as part of a larger sociopolitical fabric - one which authorizes state-supported murder against undesirable populations as a method of control. And it's interesting to see that they're working."
In American society, there is a subconscious equation that is accepted by the majority of its people:
BAD = DISPOSABLE
BAD = UNDESIREABLE
There is another equation that is in operation:
BAD PEOPLE = Underclass tier
BAD PEOPLE = Lower class tier
I'll go even further:
BAD NEIGHBORHOOD = economically-disenfranchised area of cities/towns
I already mentioned the equation used by law enforcement:
THUG = DISPOSABLE TRASH
Now...these equations can't really be argued because there is overwhelming evidence that these equations are in full effect throughout the land.
Black men and black male adolescents are disporportionately being targeted for legalized murder.
It is reported that Oscar Grant was pleading for his life. The police believed Oscar Grant was being "confrontational" and whenever a police officer decides someone who is deemed "bad" is being "confrontational", he begins to decide on the use of FORCE to subdue the situation.
I am not sure why this has not sunk in with most of our people. It seems quite simple really.
You said something else that I think many people may be thinking.
"What have these shootings taught us, what are they forcing us to do? We must alter *our* appearance, *our* behavior, *our* way of speaking, *our* geographic location. It's like we're saying 'We need to clean up or The Man is gonna kill us!' To me, it's like we have to follow the rules of *their* game. Not that I know what rules we should be playing, in the first place."
First, let me clarify that class tier indoctrination is not cosmetic; it is intrinsic.
I am sure that there are many who were conditioned within UC/LC tiers who actually think that if they just change their speech, dress, behaviors, and address, then they will be "perceived" as middle class.
In reality, they aren't really identified as middle class by anyone in those settings except for those who are "transplants" as they are.
I mentioned at this blog that many white editorialists continued to bring up Michelle Obama's class of origin while scoffing at the notion that she was being compared to Jackie Kennedy. The message they wanted to convey is that Harvard and Princeton credentials and a wardrobe and hair style change does not turn anyone into a blue blood.
Black people reacted to those articles as though the issue was one of racism. In fact, that was a reflection of classism.
As much as I read conversations in the blogosphere, it is apparent to me that most people who are engaged in conversations who mention racism really do not know how to identify the line that separates what is racist and what is classist.
You mentioned "the rules".
There are a few facts that can not be refuted but that many black men have not seemed to grasp.
(1) Black men do not control the criminal justice system. Black men do not control the creation of justice or the exercise of justice.
I think they acknowledge this at a superficial level, but the cursory acknowledgment has not resulted in any behaviors that suggest they fully understand all implications of this reality.
(2) Black men do not control the infrastucture that reinforces and upholds classism and racism within the culture of law enforcement.
I think they see this reality but have not absorbed the consequences of not addressing this reality.
If you don't make the rules, then you have a choice:
(1) Follow the rules set by those who control the rules.
(2) Dismantle the mechanisms that reinforce and support the rules.
(3) Accept the consequences of non-compliance of the rules that are established by those who control the rules.
Black men have chosen #3.
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
Rev. Lisa, quoting her dad:
"I will require your sisters to honor you and to show you respect but you must BECOME worthy and REMAIN worthy of honor and respect in their eyes."
My reply:
What is striking, though, is that it seems to me that there are black men who have learned a different lesson.
No matter how much they dishonor and disrespect black women and children, and perhaps especially if they dishonor black women and children, they will be honored and respected.
This honor, respect and protection can come from several sources.
Not only willl they be protected by other black men who are neutral about what happens to black women and children outside of their "circle of caring," but also from the "Civil Rights Establishment" referred to by Gina from What About Our Daughters.
They will also be protected by misguided black women who have made a devilish deal with the dark side of patriarchy.
This deal is that they are different from "those" women and children who deserved what they got, or who don't deserve any sympathy. It can't happen to them, or if it does happen to them, they will be respected and protected (by the men and other women), compared to the other women and girls who are not as worthy.
They forget that all women can be made to be seen as one of "those" women, and quite often if something bad happens to a black woman, the question will always be in the back of many people's minds, "what did she do"?
I am reminded of a quote from a Gerda Lerner history of black women in America. This was said by a middle class black woman living in the South and the impact of white supremacy on her life and the lives of other women like her:
A colored woman, no matter how respectable, is lower than a white prostitute.
When black men treat black women as lower than dirt, as you argued, they are buying into white supremacy.
It is so troubling that there are black men who see themselves as worthy of respect and honor when they do not respect and honor black women, when that is the hallmark of what a man does, respect and honor the women of his group.
Black women have been told, especially through the cultural institutions of the past 40 or so years, that they only have to be loyal and devoted, and that they would get loyalty and devotion in turn.
It is obvious from some of the comments here that did not always follow. It certain instances, it resulted only in explotiation and abuse.
Perhaps some men need to victimize others in order to uplift themselves, or because they don't honor and respect themselves, they can't offer the same to others.
Much of the thug culture seems to be built on that: "kill or be killed"; to care is to be "soft".
Adherents see the future as hopeless, so who cares about dying--quite nihilistic. Thus, young black men have among the highest homicide rates in the nation--they are killing themselves when they are not targeted by the police for state-sponsored murder.
Hi Lisa, good blog, I will try to comment as your guideline ask. You had alot of excellent comments to read.
You said:
"Many black women allow their sons to identify with street culture. The "gangsta" pose, the "gangsta" wardrobe and the "gangsta" posse are widely accepted in many all-black neighborhoods because no oen is making a connection between the validation of street culture and the willingness of law enforcement to commit more and more legalized murders."
My responsse:
People will try to argue with this by saying black people should be allowed to wear what they choose without beiung profiled. How come we as a people don't get angry with our own for using these styles, clothes, dreadlocks, etc... as trends in the negative light for the wrong reasons?? I wear dreadlocks for 14 years and I'm profiled because there are some black people with dreads that keep doing the wrong things.
___________________________________
La incognita said:
"Well, sorry. I declined, and I got the cold shoulder for a while, of course. It's not just because I don't know this man (a menace criminal, and I'm not candying around what he was) but why should I take my hard earned money to help fund or glorify yet another "gangsta" funeral when I have other things I want to do with my time?"
My response:
Glad you told that story with such passion. Interesting you mentioned it, just the other day I heard some black woman say, 'I have to go to (insert name) grandbaby funeral' and this guy was a trouble maker gangbanger who got shot by another gangbanger. I was thinking about what you said.You made a point about glorifying these funerals. It's as if these men are being refered as victims by older black women. I'm tiered seeing black mothers on TV defending their criminal sons. I think we need to frown on these black women and these men with their bad behavior during life and when they die in the hands of their bad deeds. It has to start somewhere, and good for you cause I would have done the same.
___________________________________
Khadija, Beverly and Pioneer ... I agree with everything you guys said 100%
__________________________________
"I will require your sisters to honor you and to show you respect but you must BECOME worthy and REMAIN worthy of honor and respect in their eyes."
This is key and I will use it for something personal in my life. Thanks for letting me share my piece.
lisa,
re: the three options when confronted with the Rules, #2 (dismantle the system) is much harder to do; that's well-nigh revolutionary. where will this revolution come from and who can lead it?
which, it seems, brings us back to your original questions!
how the puzzle appears to me: if the problem is bred into the bone of an institution (whether the institution is law enforcement, the legal system, the correctional system or even the 'institution' of how we construct black masculinity) then dismantling that system cannot happen with just black women doing the heavy lifting. it just can't.
we've been 'lifting as we climb' our entire history and this kind of revolutionary work needs more hands than ours. but it also needs hands that see *our* hands as ones belonging to partners, not servants.
again, thanks for this lively forum!
I found your blog after reading a comment you left on Make Fetch Happen in response to us (BW) complaining about issues that we deem important as opposed to taking action. I agreed with the statement that you made and I wanted to share with you that I had just had a similar conversation in reference to the Oscar Grant case. I was surprised to see that this was the very same topic of discussion on your blog. But I was even more surprised to read some of the comments left by your readers. I have a hard time understanding how it’s possible to separate ourselves (as black women) from our brothers. The lineage goes way too deep. We have sons, cousins, uncles, fathers, etc, that we can not “divorce” ourselves from. No matter what we tell ourselves, its scientifically impossible. Although I respect the right of everyone being entitled to their feelings, I think that it’s an absurd notion to even try. Have you heard of any other “race” of women doing so? Isn’t separation of the black family the very reason why we are in the mess we’re in now? Please keep in mind that I’m not asking rhetorical questions. I’m genuinely curious.
My fiancé and I were also discussing the case and of course, he too was angered by the situation. I told him that he needed to redirect his anger and instead take action. He then presented me with the same question that most people have “well, what can one person do?” Unfortunately, I too am plagued with the same question.
Of course, in an idealistic world, I would recommend starting a grass roots organization that would be more proactive then reactionary. Everyday black men and women are harassed and murdered by the police. This isn’t new news. In my world we as a community would address these types of situations before they happened again. We could connect people who do care about the future of their communities to meet with our Police Commissioners and our Mayor and let them know that we aren’t having it. In my ideal world, we would retaliate with the same level of injustice that we are faced with. An eye for an eye so to speak. But I know that this won’t happen. I live in the real world.
I agree wholeheartedly with your 1st and 5th points; Black residents in black residential areas DO have to stop ignoring the criminal element in their own communities and that Nothing changes unless there are swift and stern consequences. You raised a great question in asking what are the consequences that we are prepared to issue. I think an even better question is, after issuing (un)said consequences, what consequences are we prepared to face.
My response to your post may be a little of topic, as I have not addressed the questions you presented and I apologize for that. I was just impelled to respond because the world sometimes lacks worthwhile discussion and an intelligent listening ear.
Thanks for creating this forum and letting me share.
Thanks for the background Lisa. I asked because most of the articles I read were solely based on the actions of the police officer, but fail to address how Mr. Grant got himself into the situation of being handcuffed. I think many have ignored the fact that he initially did something wrong/illegal to be in that situation. It does not give the police/security officer a right to execute him (which he did), but for me, it plays a huge part in why the police behave the way they do. I believe many think that there is going to be some kind of trouble when they see a group of young black men and it is unfortunate that they are correct. It's time for us to become responsible for what we do. You cannot run around wreaking havoc on a community with no regard for those around you and behaving as if you are not accountable. I have no idea why he had to pay with his life and please understand I am not blaming this man for the actions of this officer, but I have to say that if you are not creating chaos around you, it is easier to think before you get into a situation that will cost you so dearly.
Black people should do whatever it takes to support each other.
Period.
It seems that the women writing here are stating quite clearly that they care about the black men in their lives and are concerned about their annihiliation.
Yet, they are making it clear, they demand reciprocity from the men in their lives: support for support.
As for the black men who are not in their lives, and as for doing what black women have always done, participating in and supporting movements to help random black men who are not part of their "circle of caring," they are thinking twice about the support they are willing to give, because when they support "random black men," it seems to result in an inevitable equation.
Helping random black men requires black women sacrifice their time and money, and sometimes the interests of other women (R. Kelly, as an example, Dunbar Village, as an example, Mike Tyson as an example, Gernarldo Wilson as an example), but the randon black men and the Civil Rights Establishment that supports them do not help in turn, black women who need help. They don't recognize that black women can be victimized by black men.
Some of the men they support (remember O.J. back in the early 90s) are quite willing to get black women's help and support, but when the times comes that their crisis has passed, they completely forget about the black women who supported them through it all.
As for black women surviving without black men, and still being black women without black men, Rev. Lisa's next post addresses this.
As for women divorcing themselves from their men, I was thinking about something. Asians have the among the highest rates of intermarriage, and many Asian women do not marry Asian men.
Their "family" is not floundering, because their behavior is not actively harming the group. If anything, their behavior benefits their subgroup: Asian women and biracial Asian children. As individual members of the group, they are striving to thrive, by building relationships with men whom they believe will fulfill their needs, ie., in the types of marriages they want, and in the types of lifestyles they want, through relationships with upwardly mobile non-Asian men. They are buying status for themselves and their children. That is what matters the most. They are still Asian women, they are just not with Asian men.
The issue of family and blacks and crisis in my view, is not limited to whether black women marry black men and care about black men within their families and circles of caring.
It is about black men and women seeing themselves as part of a community. Many black women see themselves as having that with black men, so it is not as though black women have dropped the ball, but whether black men are willing to see black women as equal members within their community, with rights and interests equal to theirs and worthy of support.
Unfortunately, it seems to many that for some black men, especially among the "talking heads" and Civil Rights Establishment, black men's civil rights needs take greater priority, and when black men harm black women's civil rights, no one wants to say anything in reply. It is all about protecting black men.
Furthermore, with respect to building families as part of a greater black community, where are the black men willing and interested in marrying black women and raising black children in families? Around 70% of black children are born out of wedlock. Granted, women need to protect themselves from out-of-wedlock pregnancies, but where are the men after the pregnancy has occurred?
Finally, there are greater numbers of black women than black men in this country. So can all black women who want to marry a black man even do so?
So yes, this is a crisis of family, but who is going to help resolve it? Group solutions, can they even work, or is it a matter of individual solutions?
Some black women are beginning to see what is happening; not all black men are present, capable and dedicated to protecting black women and children, and their lifestyle choices and mindsets beginning to reflect that.
Lisa, I figured the people who read your comment about Oscar Grant misunderstood where you were coming from (See BART Cop Arrested) and said so, but I just got to your post about boys in blue here. Perhaps you'll drop back over and clarify.
Thank you. Keep up the great commentary.
PioneerValleyWoman said:
As for women divorcing themselves from their men, I was thinking about something. Asians have the among the highest rates of intermarriage, and many Asian women do not marry Asian men.
Their "family" is not floundering, because their behavior is not actively harming the group. If anything, their behavior benefits their subgroup: Asian women and biracial Asian children. As individual members of the group, they are striving to thrive, by building relationships with men whom they believe will fulfill their needs, ie., in the types of marriages they want, and in the types of lifestyles they want, through relationships with upwardly mobile non-Asian men. They are buying status for themselves and their children. That is what matters the most. They are still Asian women, they are just not with Asian men.
My response:
Exactly! I use to have some Asian female friends who were puzzled by black women's loyalty to black men. They told me that they had problems with their men and simply stopped dating them and marrying them and that they thought WE (BW) should do the same. They saw that bm were not stepping up to the plate and/or were simply not present. Everyone sees the TRUTH but us.
As far as divorcing ourselves from black men…I have already done that. I am completely divested. I live in France (for now) and have absolutely NO interaction with black men and it has worked to my benefit not detriment. Why? Because bm as a group have done very little and in most cases NOTHING for me and "marrying" myself to them by investing in them emotionally, socially and financially would be foolish on my part because they give me nothing in return.
I'm going to give you a personal example to illustrate my point, it is a microcosm of what I experience on a large scale with black men as opposed to non-black men.
I have a business and have gone broke (lol) exactly twice. Both times I was dating a man, the first time I went broke I was dating a black man and the second time I went broke I was dating a white man.
Going Broke The First Time: The black man did absolutely nothing for me. He didn't have a car, but he did have a job and the resources he had he refused to share with me. Even when we went on dates, he insisted that we go DUTCH (I know better now) and since he didn't have a car, I had to drive him around whenever we went on our "dates." When I went broke because my business imploded, he refused to even help me move. LOL This man didn't even offer to buy me a bag of potatoe chips. LOL Why was I dating him because I was temporarily insane from being indoctrinated with "black people have to help each other and stick by BLACK MEN no matter what." (smh
Going Broke The Second Time: I had awoken out of my insanity and was dating a quality white man who had a car, a six-figure job and shared his resources with me generously. When I said I wanted to go to the beach, this WM flew me to Florida. LOL When we went on dates, he would be insulted if I had offered to pay, although I did reciprocate by treating him to the movies once. I paid for the popcorn. LOL Now this man was quality in many ways and offered about 80% of what I needed from a relationship. The missing 20% was critical (emotional health is necessary for a healthy relationship lol) which is why we broke up. But the kicker is that when I went broke the 2nd time this wm helped me move AFTER we had broken up AND paid for the moving expenses. LOL
When I date WM, I "miraculously" have access to high quality men who are willing to share their resources with me no matter how large or small. When I date bm men they have ALWAYS refused to share their resources with me no matter how large or small. This dynamic plays out in other areas of my life, including my business. Both times that I went broke in my business was partly because black male clients were refusing to pay me or pay me on time. **Warning Controversial Admission Coming** I now refuse to do business with black men because they have abused me financially when it comes to my business. My life is much better because of my divestment from black men.
Greetings, Beverly!
I have stopped by your blog. Your life overseas sounds exciting!
What is so striking about your experiences that you are explaining, is that there are men who would say that the selfish man you dated was right, because they have this perception that women only want to get over, so they don't give of themselves, but they demand that others give to them.
Giving of oneself is necessary for cultivating a long term relationship, ie., marriage.
Men who see themselves as providers (no matter how little they might have) don't get bent out of shape over giving of their resources to the women in their lives, or to their children. It is the way they prove their ability to provide, their dedication and responsibility.
Yet, there are men who will not pay child support because they refuse to see their children as part of themselves, or because of the drama they have with the children's mothers.
The man you dated who could give more of himself seems to be of the type who realizes the importance of male responsibility in a relationship.
And yet, men who don't realize this, do they hope to have long-term relationships with women? Some do, when the women have been indoctrinated into the mentality fed to black women, which you have given up!
I'm glad to hear how you have grown!
Hello,
I am a new visitor to this blog and after reading through all the responses, I would like to add my input to this topic.
I see that several posters mentioned class being just as, if not more important a factor in police brutality than race. The problem to me is that I think that race and class are viewed as interchangeable in regards to Black people. Class distinctions are made for Whites, but not as much for Blacks. I think most people see Blacks overall as low class, with a few exceptions.
While I agree that not dressing like a thug reduces an individual's chances of being typecast by police, that is only one preventative measure. However, a young Black male college student who lives in an exclusive community and is driving his parents luxury vehicle is just as likely to be targeted, in my opinion. Not because he looks like a thug, but because of his presence in an affluent area. The implication is that all Blacks are low class, therefore this young man must be up to no good riding around in a stolen vehicle.
I know Black men who have been accosted by police simply by walking through a White neighborhood-and these are respectable, clean cut guys. I think of the many times I have been harassed by TSA officials at the airport simply for being a young Black woman flying internationally. I dress, speak and carry myself in a respectable, refined manner, so it's not about looking low class. They simply don't think that a Black woman should have money to fly for legitimate reasons, so they must be doing something illegal like carrying drugs.
So what is the solution to classism when your race is used to define your class? How do you control people's perceptions then?
Aisha said:
While I agree that not dressing like a thug reduces an individual's chances of being typecast by police, that is only one preventative measure. However, a young Black male college student who lives in an exclusive community and is driving his parents luxury vehicle is just as likely to be targeted, in my opinion.
My response:
I don't agree that a young black male college student who lives in exclusive community is just as likely to be targeted by police. This is simply not an accurate statement, imo. He may be stopped by police; but it is not "just as likely" as an under-class black man. I fully understand that black people are stopped by police because of race; but unless they are part of the underclass they are not being gunned down by the police. When is the last time you heard about Mr. College student in the affluent neighborhood being shot in the back by the police?
Beverly said:
"I don't agree that a young black male college student who lives in exclusive community is just as likely to be targeted by police. This is simply not an accurate statement, imo. He may be stopped by police; but it is not "just as likely" as an under-class black man. I fully understand that black people are stopped by police because of race; but unless they are part of the underclass they are not being gunned down by the police. When is the last time you heard about Mr. College student in the affluent neighborhood being shot in the back by the police?"
Well I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. Here is a link on a pending investigation regarding Robbie Tolan, the son of former professional baseball player Bobbi Tolan. It's an example of what I'm referring to:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/01/08/baseballer.shot/index.html
@ Aisha,
I stand corrected. I see that there is at least one instance of this actually happening. But I still insist that it is not just as likely to occur as it would for a black male who is LC/UC.
And at the risk of being flamed...I wonder if his "culture" is that of an uc/lc black male. Of course I don't know; because I don't know this person. But money alone does not indicate class status.
I also did a little research on this situation and found this link http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/6214362.html
which attributes the shooting to a typo (which I don't believe); but what I find interesting is how they have taken action to make sure it doesn't happen again.
Post a Comment