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To the person who decided to lift my words from this blog, I notice that my exact words are in the Washington Post!

Article: "Ties That Align" by Krissah Thompson, 3/18/2009
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Thursday, July 17, 2008

THE TRANSGENDER "SISTA" AMONG US: CHAOS OR COMMUNITY?

The church folks who read this blog and who know me personally have noticed that I have a few transgender friends. I never set out to find transgender friends, but life has a way of bringing us into situations that are intended to teach us. My transgender friends have always created a huge scene whenever they visit my church. People seem to become nervous and afraid when seeing transgenders. I think that our natural instinct is to fear whatever we do not understand. There is a blog that addresses transphobia. Click here to read the writings of a 30-something transwoman.

I came into the transgender community while serving God. I began meeting people who were transgender in the communities where I was ministering the Gospel. Over time, rich friendships were formed. One person I met was dying of AIDS and we became close. When I came to the hospital wearing a clergy garment, the visitors who did not know me were staring at me. I walked in the door of the hospital room and said with a smile: "Is there room for more love in here? I've brought some." After getting to know me, the transgender community welcomed me. When my friend died of AIDS, I arrived at the funeral and saw the pews filled with transgender "sistas". I walked up to the front of the sanctuary, looked into the casket at my friend and said out loud, "I'll see you later." It was an affirmation that I wanted my friend's mother to hear, that I truly believed I would see her child in Heaven when I got there. I spoke to the sister of my friend and told her how much her sibling had mattered in my life.

There are some myths that I will shatter about transgenders:

1. All transgenders are homosexual.

2. All transgenders have faced sexual abuse in childhood.

3. All transgenders are emotionally wounded.

4. All transgenders are fetishists.

5. All transgenders are confused about gender identity.

6. No transgenders are Christians.

7. All transgenders are outside of society's mainstream.

8. All transgenders are "freakish" looking.

9. All transgenders would be "normal" if they received help.

Often, MtF transgenders are a disappointment to black women because they are viewed as black men who are "wasted". Many black women see a black man who is gay or cross-dressing and sigh, "another one wasted".

It surprises me to see the reactions of others when I am having dinner with my transgender friends and one of them mentions I am a minister when introducing me. It seems that many transgendered persons are used to being shunned by those who profess to be Christian.

One of my ministry colleagues asked me, "how is it that you can be an advocate for gays and be a Christian?" I replied, "Define gay advocate. I believe I am an equality advocate. Perhaps I have misunderstood your observation. Are you are saying that my commitment to equality and my disdain for injustice and hatred makes me 'a gay advocate', I mean, according to your dictionary? Or are you saying something else?" My colleague did not respond.

My transgendered friends know that they are loved by God and I tell them constantly.

The black community does not talk about the transgender community. I have been to many blogs of black women and I never read anything about the intersectionality of transgender issues and black women's empowerment priorities.

I think that many black women view MtF transgenders as fetishists who like "playing dress up". Many people do not realize that there are people who believe that they were born as a man but were supposed to be a woman, or that they were born as a woman and were supposed to be a man. Those who believe it strongly enough will identify with the gender that he/she believes he/she was intended to be.

MtF transgenders are usually reviled by black men and are often harassed and physically threatened. It is extremely dangerous for a MtF transgender to be alone at night because the likelihood of facing violence is great. Transgenders have been tortured by police and refused medical attention by EMTs. I have never understood what enrages a black man when encountering someone who has not shared his sexual orientation. I have never felt rage or hatred when encountering someone who did not share my sexual identity and I certainly do not have the constitution to lash out with harmful words or actions. We will never be empowered as a people until we decide, as individuals, to confront our ignorance and our intolerance. Injustice will never be isolated to just the segments of society that we don't care much about.

MtF transgenders are not usually thought of as "women" by most black women. The more I speak to black women about MtF transgenders, the more I hear that they are usually thought of as emotionally-troubled men who are presenting themselves as caricatures of black women. The American Psychological Association has a brochure titled, "Answers to Your Questions About Transgender Individuals and Gender Identity": Click here to read it.


(Video added August 11. Blog Credit: Dr. Rebecca Auge)

Do black women believe in embracing the fluidity of gender? If we do, how fluid is gender?

I want to talk about the fluidity of gender.

I want to discuss the presentation of gender.

I want to examine how we are conditioned to accept parameters of gender.

How have black women learned to define "woman"?

What are the specific aspects of this definition that we must change?

How have black women learned to define "man"?

Can a man have a "woman" inside of him?

Can a woman have a "man" inside of her?

Are you a woman simply because of your anatomy?

When does anatomy become less important in the definition of gender?

Three months ago, I wrote a post titled, "Sisterhood and the Lesbian Factor" and I addressed the stereotypes about black lesbians. In that post, I did not talk about the "sistas" who are MtF transgenders. I do not believe that we will see a decrease in the number of MtF transgenders in the black community. I believe that the transgender community is growing at a rate that we haven't noticed because this community is often separated from the "mainstream" black community. As we discuss empowerment for black women, are we thinking about the empowerment of our transgender "sistas"?

If not, why not?

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RELATED POSTS (Click on title.)

"Evolving Into Black Womanhood" (TransGriot)

"The Cause of Anger In The Transgender Community" (TransGroup Blog)

"I Am Not A Transvestite" (Laverne Cox)

"On Becoming A Man"

"Can You Be Transgendered and Christian?" (Whoever)

"Out In Scripture" Biblical Devotions (HRC)

45 COMMENTS:

roxy said...

Yay! Love for transgender people in the black church!! Please be the start of a trend!

LISA VAZQUEZ said...

Welcome Roxy!

Thank you so much for finding my blog! Please spread the word! (smile)

I hope that you will come often and share with us!

I hope you find some discussions here that are useful. Please share your ideas on other topics that you would like for me to present! I have a transgender writer on my blog roll if you are interested.

As for the "new trend" of loving all people, I didn't start that one... Jesus did. I am just trying to imitate Him.

(smiles)

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Interesting, how you took the issue of gender fluidity in this way, Rev!

Hmm. When I think of gender fluidity, I don't normally think of transgendered people.

How are we defining things? I think the terminology has been changing. I have usually used the phrase transsexual (for those who made the change biological) and transvestite, for those who just make the appearance.

I haven't known any, but I have seen them around in various places where I have lived. I noticed them solely out of curiosity, how well the M-F transgendered person fits the "female" mold.

What is interesting is the story, though, of the transsexual who became pregnant and gave birth. Were people flipped out over that!

Back to how I traditionally think about fluidity in gender roles. This is in answer to one of your questions. I think of this in terms of Jung's animus and anima, that we each have inner strengths, sensibilities that fit the other gender.

These come from the experiences we have in our lives of what it means to be masculine or feminine--stemming from mom and dad, as an example.

I believe it is important for the person to be balanced in the sense of having personality traits that reflect an awareness of each. In the case of imbalances, problems arise.

Think of the man who has a sense of the traditional female values of empathy, nurturing, sensitivity, to balance his masculine personality. A young man might get this through seeing his father nurture his wife and children: caring for them, respecting them, and seeing that his mother's feminine strength is something to be celebrated. He learns that men can nurture and that it is powerful, manly and important.

What can result if men lack this? Hypermasculinity, the overly aggressive violence of men who have not seen the balance between male strength and power as indicated by men with a healthy masculine development. Thus, think of the kinds of things we are seeing of men seeing women as objects of exploitation, to rape, beat up--Dunbar Village, etc.

I have thought of discussions regarding of the problems that arise when women don't have sufficient of the alternative (male energy) inside, or if they have too much of it: women who are not as effective in the outer world, because they have not cultivated the traditional male values which are important for effectiveness there: assertiveness, etc.

Moreover, women can be criticized for embodying those qualities, especially when their alternative male energy seems to overcome the feminine--women who seem "too hard," too masculine--the complaint made of black women being too "strong..."

Faith said...

Hi Lisa,

Another excellent post! I am live blogging from the Net Roots conference at the Women's caucus. I'll be covering the African-American caucus that follows.


http://www.actsoffaithinloveandlife.blogspot.com

The PrivyChairLady said...

As long as their respective state acknowledges them in their renewed identity AND they continue to remain living as that identity, I'm fine.

Khadija said...

You mean you want me to examine my own biases & bigotry?!! Perish the thought. Hmmmph.

I'm for equality for gays. Although, I've got limitations based on my bigotry. Socially, I'm only comfortable with so-called "straight-acting & straight-appearing" lesbians and gay men. I get tense around so-called "stereotypical" gays & lesbians.

I'm "not feeling" this transgender issue, though. I'm one of those women who feel that M-F transgenders are men "presenting themselves as caricatures of Black women." Whether these men are emotionally troubled or not, I don't know. I've never really thought about it.

For me, the issue of female solidarity with M-F transgenders feels like just another outside interest group seeking to ride other people's coattails. White women (and others) hopped onto the affirmative action train that was created by African-Americans.

In this case, there are men seeking to have themselves recognized as women & reap whatever benefits that can be gained from women's solidarity.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

m dot said...

I just wanted to give kudos on your writing and this topic.

One of my best friends is a Black lesbian who has taught me so much about the LGBTQ community, particularly within communities of color. I am still learning...

I don't know too many M-F transgenders. Interesting...

LISA VAZQUEZ said...

Welcome Pioneer Valley Woman!

Thank you so much for sharing!

Yes, I decided to "go there"! (smile)

We have a lot of discussions at this blog about our self-identification as black women and we talk about how society has imposed certain parameters that become ingrained in our psyche.

I have wanted to write on this issue for quite some time but I knew that it would be a topic that very few black women had researched extensively.

I know that my ministry colleagues would prefer that I not discuss these issues about how black women relate to transgendered women because it exposes a lot of the bigotry that has gained acceptance in the community of Christian faith.

Many Christians believe that God has clear guidelines about the presentation of gender, and that God does not permit any modification to the expression of gender identity. In the last thirty years, I believe these theological issues have produced some intense discussions.

I read this piece about non-trans who write about trans issues:
http://sandystone.com/hale.rules.html

Transgender do not want to be misrepresented.

At Sandy Stone's website, she mentions that some people believe that sex and gender are inseparable. Persons who embrace this thought are referred to as Essentialists.

She goes further to say that Social Constructivists believe that both sex and gender arise in social interaction and have no existence independent of social interaction.

I do not believe that I am an Essentialist. I believe that gender is taught. We are given gender definitions very early in life. Whatever definition we were given creates parameters that we decide to stay within.

In the discussion we had a month ago about "The Redefinition of Black Femininity", some commenters were sharing that femininity is not defined by attire or appearance.

I want to make clear to all who read this post that I am not presenting this topic as a self-proclaimed expert on transgender issues! (smiles) Having friends who are trans does not make anyone a trans expert or a trans activist.

I look forward to hearing other viewpoints in this conversation! I appreciate what you have offered to this exchange and I hope you will share more!

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
_________________________________

Welcome Faith!

Thank you so much for sharing your blog and for stopping by!

I will be sure to stop by this evening!

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

_________________________________

Welcome PrivyChairLady!
{waves}

I haven't seen you in quite some time! Thank you for wanting to pass by and see what's cooking!

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

_________________________________

Welcome Khadija!

Thanks for adding to this conversation!

I believe there are so many black women who feel the way you do than who feel the way I do!

I am wondering about something you mentioned... since there is CLEARLY a war against black women underway, what coattails (or bra straps *smile*) of ours could transgendered women even ride on? We are in a patriarchal society so are there benefits to renouncing masculinity? What are they? I'm curious to know.

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

__________________________________

Welcome M Dot!

Thank you so much for stopping by and sharing your experience!

Once, I was complimented by a (heterosexual) man who THOUGHT I was another RuPaul! When I mentioned it to my brother, he said, "oh come on!!" He felt that was utterly ridiculous and that the man who said that was just trying to find a way to start a conversation since he saw me with my transgendered friends! *LOL*
(I had thought that it was because of my height and my hairstyle...which back then...was the Chaka Khan look.)

Feel free to share more about what you have learned from your exposure to the GLBTSI community.

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

Felicity said...

A very interesting piece, I think a lot of people are at war with themselves and each other. Even though Constatine converted to Christianity, the church has continued to fail us, they had no integrity and they failed to stand on God's word, so as a result God has withdrawn the Holy Ghost and at the moment, we are in confusion, we are in the world, but not of the world and if you find it is your mission to give transgenders piece so be it. Many of us operate in such a low level and it is easy to condemn, but the church is behaving like the world, we suffer from lack in all areas of our lives. I honesty think to change lives, we need to change ourselves and we Christians should be Christ life, we should be see glory on us, and the whole area would be change, we are so provision minded that we fail to concentrate on our assignment. Rev Lisa, God bless you and you are doing a good job.

Khadija said...

Lisa,

You asked "what bra straps could transgendered women even ride on?" LOL!

A perceived benefit doesn't have to be rational or material. In this case, it's the emotional benefit of intruding & encroaching on actual women's self-definition. Similar to the way the some Whites like to vacation within Black subcultures----Eminem, etc.

It's a power thing. Quirky Whites feel entitled to "bogard" their way into our cultural spaces if they so desire. These quirky men feel entitled to bogard their way into our space as women.

It boils down to the disempowered group (Blacks, women, Black women) not being entitled to have anything of their own. And not being entitled to set boundaries & deny entrance to people from dominant groups (Whites, men) who (for whatever reasons) want to jump into our space.

The more I think about it, I realize that I'm "not feeling" this issue because it registers emotionally as an intrusion into women's space. Can't women have anything to ourselves? Even if it's simply the power to define who is, and is not, one of us.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

LISA VAZQUEZ said...

Welcome Felicity!

Thanks so much for joining in this dialogue!

I hope that you will feel welcome to share your own experiences in the transgender community, if you have friends who are part of that community!

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

__________________________________

Welcome Khadija!

You have touched on an issue that I raise often at my blog... the issue about "ownership"....people thinking they OWN "blackness" and that they can decide who has a black experience....this issue about WHO "owns" gender is so close to the WHO "owns" blackness discussion.

I believe that gender is individual and HOW it is expressed by the individual becomes a choice of the individual.

I do not believe that I have a right to tell ANY PERSON how to express gender identity or race identity or class identity or spiritual identity....

From what I have experienced, transgendered women do not see themselves as men who are "borrowing" femininity or "borrowing" gender from us since consciousness can not be owned like a commodity.

I do understand what you mean about these people who want to be reverse oreos... (smile)...not sure how else to refer to them...

Let's look at the issue of black women who have decided to take on the role of headship in the home...a role that was (at one time) assumed to be a male position in the family...by assuming this role, are black women "borrowing" an identity that "belonged" to men?

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

Khadija said...

Lisa,

We've reached another agree to disagree point. Yes, the ownershp issues involved in this topic overlap with the ownership issues involved regarding ethnicity and race.

Ownership is important. In fact, it's critical to group survival. Every group except African-Americans seems to understand this. This is one area where the Black Nationalist ideology (that I used to subscribe to) is correct.

Ownership boils down to self-determination. Or Kujichagulia, as it's called as one of the principles of Kwanzaa. Kujichagulia is "to define ourselves, name ourselves, create for ourselves, and speak for ourselves." All of this involves setting boundaries. Boundaries involve excluding people unless & until the group gives them permission to enter.

If other people can 'bust up into' a group (without that group's permission), then that group does not have any self-determination. In short, that group is powerless. Take note that only powerless people are confronted with these sorts of intrusions. NOBODY tells Jewish people that they can't define who is, and who is not, considered "officially" Jewish.

Boundaries also recognize the existence of a consensus. This is not to say that the group consensus is correct or healthy, but it is important. The "anything & anyone can call themselves Black" position that you seem to be advocating makes it possible for outsiders to define our leaders for us. To define our interests for us.

This position smooths the way for external enemies to tell us that internal enemies are our leaders; and that anti-Black policies are in our interests. This is what racist Republicans and their Negro lackies have been doing for the past 25 years.

You often seem to reduce ownership concerns down to a petty "is skiing a Black experience" type of thing, but ownership has survival implications that go way beyond petty social interactions.

Back to the immediate topic of M-F transgender folks: They can do whatever they want to do. However, I reserve the right to exercise self-determination as a woman, and resist them encroaching upon the very limited resources that are set-aside for women. I reserve the right to resist them riding our coattails, or them taking sustenance from our meager resources. They need to develop their own resources, and leave our stuff alone.

Those of us of a certain age remember watching East Germany's "women's" swim team on tv (none of whom seemed to have been born female) during the Olympics. We watched the spectacle of the extremely broad-shouldered, Adam's appled, burly, & downright manly East German "women's" swim team compete against actual women. This is not a spectacle that I would care to see repeated in the context of competing to draw upon Black women's limited resources.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

LISA VAZQUEZ said...

Welcome Khadija!

Thanks for the additional viewpoints you shared!

I should clarify two points because you have attributed two positions to me that DO NOT reflect my thoughts or beliefs at all.

I recall the discussion concerning these points took place three months ago.

POINT #1

You were referring to me when you said the following:
The "anything & anyone can call themselves Black" position that you seem to be advocating makes it possible for outsiders to define our leaders for us.

No, I don't seem to be advocating that position.

There are no posts on this blog that make that assertion.

I have never said that ANYONE or ANYTHING can call themselves black.

What I did say was this:

There are no "pure" Africans among the black Americans who are descendants from U.S. slavery. The ancestry of black Americans contains many different groups.

I also said this:
No ONE group of the U.S. slavery descendants has ANY eligibility to decide for all of the black race HOW MUCH African ancestry any of the other black Americans have.

I made this point in a discussion long ago in order to refute the terminology you were using "partial outsider".

I was pointing out that YOU did not have anyone's DNA to decide who is and who is not more black than another black person and that your OWN ancestry was part European and therefore you would be deemed "a partial outsider" of the black race if European blood constitutes the category of "other".

In that conversation, I pointed out that the sub-categories you seemed to be introducing were NOT based on any DNA ancestral information.

One person's parent could be Native American and STILL have more African ancestry than a person who has TWO parents who are "deemed" black simply because those who are "deemed" black can have European bloodlines.

This is why those sub-categories you were introducing seemed to have little merit because I told you at that time thath no DNA means there is no factual evidence you can point to that defines those sub-categories.

Those sub-categories seemed to be based on assumptions - not DNA -about ancestral groups that black Americans here belong to. That was why I didn't continue that portion of the conversation when it was presented three months ago.

If you STILL feel that I have not understood your point about the need for sub-categories of black people in this country then I can accept that.

I'd rather focus on the topic of this post.

POINT #2
These is one more clarification I should make that does not pertain to this post but addresses a statement you made in your remarks above.

You said:
I will address your statement:
"You often seem to reduce ownership concerns down to a petty "is skiing a Black experience" type of thing, but ownership has survival implications that go way beyond petty social interactions."

There is NO position that I have presented on this blog or on any other blog that is remotely similar to that.

I have never defined "the black experience" in terms of activities.

In fact, I would quickly challenge anyone who presented that mentality.

I find that those who have had limited contact with other cultures tend to state "what is black" and "what is white" using very superficial determinations.

Just to clarify...
I don't define "the black experience" or "the white experience" by trivialities such as activities or residential geography.

I've heard some black people make comments that those who grew up as poor blacks in all-black neighborhoods had a "black experience".

I think those perspectives are very narrow. I have made that point in other discussions.

My definition of what is "black" did not come from white America's propoganda in the media.

My definition did not come from school books.

My definition didn't come from the self-definition adopted by blacks who had never left this country to see and experience the African nations we came from.

I hear comments from others such as "that's for white folks". Anything in MY life experience is a black experience since it is experienced by a black person.

That was my position.

In the prior discussion when the black experience was being discussed at this blog three months ago, what I said was this:

There is NOT ONE ideology that can be deemed THE black ideology for all.

I also said this:
There are MANY black ideologies.

That should clarify the two points that you attributed to me that I believed were completely inaccurate.

As for the transgendered women and their interests in being in community with "biological" women in the black community...I'd like to hear some examples of what you mean when you say:
"I reserve the right to resist them riding our coattails, or them taking sustenance from our meager resources."

What resources do black women 'own'?

What resources do black women have ALL TO THEMSELVES right now in the black community that transgendered women would "encroach" upon?

I am missing that point entirely.

Give me the resources that can be encroached upon.

You said:
They need to develop their own resources, and leave our stuff alone.

I am wondering:
What is "OUR STUFF"?

I am not sure I am following you on that point.

I want to be clear about this point:

Gender can not be "owned".

Gender is not a territory to be claimed.

I am not saying you have asserted this...I am just making those two statements for those who are reading.

Parameters of gender identity are individual...SOCIETY would like to be able to dictate this however.

How would black women dictate another person's expression of gender identity to PROTECT "our stuff"?

I don't see how they could...do you know how they could?

I believe we do agree on this point you shared:

Back to the immediate topic of M-F transgender folks: They can do whatever they want to do."

Thanks so much for the contributions you have offered to this dialogue!

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

OG, The Original Glamazon said...

Lisa,

First I have to say it always gets under my skin when folks want to say as a Christian you can not befriend gays or the transgendered. I mean Jesus ministered to many of the "undesirable" groups of his time. I always grew up love the sinner, not the sin. That philosophy pretty much covers everything. Plus it angers me how we are cool with heterosexual sinners but somehow like to think that sin is better than homosexuality. I mean sin is sin, there is no real ladder, and if God can love me in all my muck and mire why can't he love someone else in all their Gay, Lesbian, and transgenderedness. Plus I am not so sure how much of a "choice" any of this is. No matter how you look at it God made them and if he makes no mistakes, then there are several ways you as a Christian can reconcille that. Whether you look at it like a defect, like autism or no limbs, or you look at it as God makes no mistakes so there must be a reason that the person is here, how can you think its any more of a choice than being born black or tall, or blue-eyed?

My first real tG friendships actually as I think of it, my only have been online. Or at least the tG that are out to me. I also seem to have gathered a cross dressing following as well (which has nothing to do with tG I have learned). Who knows why! I always think its because I'm a woman's woman who happens to be of Amazon stature. *lol*

I have to tell you when I first started these friendships my thought was do they think I'm a tranny? Do they think I'm a cross dressing man? Me being me I have asked and they have all been like OF COURSE not. I guess its that was my way in struggling with the idea of gender. It really doesn't matter if people think I am or not, and it took me a minute to work through that, mostly because of my insecurity being a woman who could easily be mistaken for tG or cross dresser. My BFF say absolutely not, no one would ever mistake me for a man, but she feels her and her mother on the other hand, there is great possibility. *lol* Funny I got mistaken for a man the other day on the bus. I really didn't know how to feel about that, because I guess it has such a negative connotation but really I can't put my finger on why that of all things I have overheard about myself that that particular mislabel gets to me. I think maybe it's because like you said my femininity is who I am and for someone to think I was anything other than a natural born sister is unsettling. I enjoy every aspect about being a woman and wouldn't want to be a man EVER.

So when I thought about it I was like imagine what it must be like to be a man and enjoy and feel everything about being a woman, but not be one on the outside. As you know my lil brother is gay, so I do have exposure to the community. The thing is an effeminate gay man is not the same as a man who feels he should have been born a woman. The issues are different. I have watched a few documentaries on transgendered children who were severely depressed when they were their born genders. Things like a little boy who at 3 asked his mom for a va-jay jay for Christmas and meant is. Like I said the utter turmoil I have with someone thinking I have a penis as a woman, makes me know that actually having a penis but feeling like a woman must be HELL!

I don't think its anatomy alone that defines gender alone. From watching that documentary, I know that gender is also a mental thing and not just nature vs nurture. I saw kids who hadn't been nurtured into female roles, but rather male roles because they were anatomically male, still identify themselves as female and vice versa. Based on that I think gender is largely mental, but requires anatomy in order to be complete. Does that makes sense?

-OG

Hagar's Daughter said...

I must say that I don't think deeply about transgenders and transsexuals and what impacts them. I do think about equality, the violence they face, and their relationships with their families (if they have their family's support). I often think about how the church treats, mistreats, or remains silent about them. But I must say that I've never thought on all the levels that you have pointed out. I don't have an answer; maybe I'm so busy thinking about how I am defining my life and rewriting my life's script - I just don't know.

A couple of years ago a police officer reported that a mother (drug addicted, transient, & prostituting) left her 3 month old in the care of a group of MtF transgenders. It had been a month since they had heard from the mother so they called police. The officer was more concerned that the baby was with the transgenders than he was that the mother was nowhere to be found. The police officer wanted a social worker "right away." There was no reason to rush because the officer said the baby was well cared for and healthy and thriving. The MtF transgenders were okay with a social worker responding within the week. It was after this that I became more vocal in my support of transgender and transsexual individuals.

Khadija said...

Lisa,

What I was referring to was (what sounded to me like) a resistance to the very idea of Black people setting any boundaries for membership in our category at all. It's quite possible (as ever) that I'm not hearing you accurately.

I believe that "race" is a largely social construct that makes purported "scientific" identifiers like DNA mostly irrelevant. It's more a social caste than anything else. For example, a half-White, half-Asian person like Keanu Reeves is categorized as "White" (without modifiers attached to his description). Meanwhile, most half-White, half-Black persons won't be categorized as "White" (regardless of their appearance once it is discovered that they are half-Black).

Which brings me back to the internal group consensus about membership in the "Black" category.

When the topic of boundaries or ownership comes up, you often seem to refer to examples of Black people (with very limited exposure to the world outside their poor Black neighborhoods) basing this on trivialities. My point is that ownership & boundaries can be a matter of group survival. We have a right to set boundaries like everybody else. And that these boundaries are based on a group consensus.

If the current group consensus about boundaries is based on trivial things, it means that the group needs to be educated into setting better (and more functional) boundaries. NOT that the idea of boundaries & ownership are somehow inherently wrong.

Back to the M-F transgender folks. For example, if there is a scholarship or educational stipend for Black female students available, I DON'T want M-F transgenders availing themselves of this resource. In fact, that's something that I would probably actively protest & resist. This is the sort of thing I'm talking about when I refer to "stuff."

In this example, M-F transgenders need to raise money among themselves to produce their own resources (such as scholarships, etc.), instead of any attempts to coast on whatever meager resources there are for Black women. No East-German "women's" swim team maneuvers when it comes our resources!

I have no interest in, nor would I attempt to dictate, somebody else's expression of gender identity. I don't care at all about this.

What I do care about are other people helping themselves to Black women's meager resources. I have a problem with anything that authorizes others to snatch food off Black women's collective table (without our prior consent). I'm not saying that this is what you're advocating.

We might be talking past each other because we're focused on very different angles to this issue. You seem to be talking primarily about transgendered people's right to express their gender identity however they see fit. That's fine with me (not that they need my consent or agreement for this).

I'm talking about them bogarding their way into being legally defined as women. Which puts them on track to grab (through lawsuits) the few resources that are set-aside for Black women. This is the point at which I dissent.

If Black women decide that we WANT & CHOOSE to share whatever limited resources (scholarships, etc.) we have with M-F transgenders, that's a different thing. If this becomes the consensus among Black women, then I will respect the consensus.

Peace, blessings & solidarity.

jjbrock said...

Lisa another great thought provoking post. I can't wrap my mine around trans gender without thinking of them as men dressing in women clothes.

I don't see them as women, I don't say this with disrespect at all I just don't get it. I thought what's consider male and female was our anatomy I didn't know there is another way to determine that.

I have seen transgender men in the church that I grew up in singing in the choir and stuff and I think the church should be more accepting of all people because EVERY BODY has a soul.

PS, When you visit a blog and leave a comment(especially my blog) I always enjoy reading what you have to say about the subject. I love your insight.

LISA VAZQUEZ said...

The comment below was submitted at 9:47 AM by SAGACIOUS HILLBILLY and was pasted in by the blog administrator with one word edited out.

SAGACIOUS HILLBILLY SAID:
Wow. Good post. Very enlightening for anyone of any gender or race.
Transgender acceptance among straights and even some gays seems to be so ________ difficult. We have these social norms so deeply ingrained in our brains. . . sometimes immovable. We had a guy at work go through the whole sex change thing and it was very difficult for me to deal with him as a her after having delt with him for so long.
I have a gay friend who is always beating up on himself because he has a real problem with transgender m-f people. . . he doesn't want to, but it just comes out.
There needs to be more recognition and promotion of the condition/state of mind/whatever. The more regular folks are exposed to things the more we become accepting.
Good job of revelation and exposure.
SH

Camo said...

For me, the issue of female solidarity with M-F transgenders feels like just another outside interest group seeking to ride other people's coattails.

It may seem that way to you, but to me if you are a PoC in the trans community, they look down on you. I'm brown and had a white trans lady say to my face "We only have white people in this group." So if trans people reject us and PoC reject us, then who can we reach out to? We are alone.

Standtall said...

“We will never be empowered as a people until we decide, as individuals, to confront our ignorance and our intolerance. Injustice will never be isolated to just the segments of society that we don't care much about”

How true this is. When I was at the university, there was a young man that believed he is a woman. He dresses like one and would make up and wear a wig. He was despised by all. He was even stopped at his 4th yr into law for entering the classes because he would not dress in a black suit and white trouser like they expected them to dress. Base on the fact that he could not conform with their dressing code. He lost his studentship. But before then, a lot of people would avoid him, if they ever greeted him, it would be to merely despise him.

Our society up till now could not tolerate such a development. And it is had for people like him to leave a fulfilled life because they are rejected out rightly and discriminated against. Though I could see that it’s easier for their female counterpart to try and dress like the men without much criticism but they would still be criticized against one way or they other too.

I have learnt to try and understand and co –exist with people that choose to be different no matter my beliefs and not try and infringe on their rights as individuals.

I do hope the church, their families and the society will treat them right

LISA VAZQUEZ said...

Welcome O.G.!

Thank you for stopping by!

It is so valuable to hear from those who have had experiences with the transgender community and who are speaking from the perspective of having acquired a level of exposure!

I feel the way you do about being a woman. I would never want to be a man. My father taught me that there IS male privilege but with THAT male privilege comes more requirements that men must fulfill. I know many black women have never been TOLD THAT men have more requirements to fulfill. This is why male privilege in the black community is often associated with the oppression of women NOT associated with additional responsibility and additional requirements for them than women have to adopt. That notion is NOT fostered in the black community at all. I don't want to veer off topic with that comment.

I do agree with you that an effeminate man is NOT the same as a man who believes feels he should have been born anatomically as a woman.

I am not sure if you are familiar with the "shock jock" Wendy Williams who has a radio show in New York but she is often told she looks like a "tranny". The reason she is told that is because of her height, her large body structure, and her long blond wigs and heavy make up.

Many MtF transgenders that I have seen tend to spend a lot of time with make up and the result tends to look more "drag queen" than "natural woman". That's just my opinion. It is not true for all MtF transgenders however! Many of them you would never even spot in a crowd.

I agree with you that the conceptualization for gender identity is not about anatomy for the individual. It depends on the meaning that the individual gives to his/her anatomy in relation to his/her identity. There ARE some heterosexual men who have embraced phallocentricity and connect their identity and their manhood to their male anatomy.

In that respect, there ARE some individuals who DO connect gender identity with anatomy and others who do not.

My position has been that I don't have any right at all to tell anyone how they can or can not formulate their self-identity. As a Christian, I make certain decisions for me in my OWN life but I do not think that everyone must think or live or believe as I do in order to be loved by me. As much as I would like to "say" that I live just like Jesus, the real deal and raw deal is...no, I do not live just like Jesus! Eventhough I not, I know that He loves me.

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

__________________________________

Welcome Hagar's Daughter!

Thank you for joining in this conversation!

Overall, there is VERY little conversation in the black church about transgender issues...plenty of sermons about race issues though...plenty of sermons about economic issues...but no sermons about gender identity issues.

I do not believe that most "church folks" are Social Constructionists (the term described in my first comment above).

I believe that most "church folks" I have discussed the issue with are Essentialists (believing that believe that anatomy determines gender identity). They believe that "God doesn't make mistakes" and the anatomy a person had at birth was "God's will" for them.

Does this mean that a person born without a leg should never have an artificial leg? Does this mean that a person born without a nose should not surgically receive a nose? Does this mean a person with two genitalia (which happens MORE OFTEN than anyone knows about) should never have surgery? This is where their position about "how someone is born is God's will" raises questions in my mind.

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

__________________________________

Welcome Khadija!

Thank you for all you have added to this conversation.

I just want to mention to the readers that for those who want to engage in dialogue about racial identity, please add comments to the post titled, "On Being Black and Other".

Let me address a couple things, Khadija, that relate to the comments you added.

After that, I will move to the topic of this post.

DNA is not irrelevant for black people in knowing their ancestry. It is essential in knowing their ancestry.

DNA may not be as important for other groups in knowing their own ancestry. Some white people may know their ancestry is Irish and they don't need a DNA sample to know that.

Outer appearance MAY NOT accurately reflect a person's dominant ancestral group.

DNA will pinpoint a person's dominant ancestral heritage.

For some, having a connection to his/her dominant ancestral group is important. For others, it is not.

Any practice of black people creating sub-categories for people based on criteria that is NOT FACTUAL is not something I will agree with.

I often hear people say "white people will define a half-white person as black". My response to them is this:

It doesn't matter WHAT white people decide someone's category is. No black person should say "since white people will not acknowledge my ancestry then I will not".

I have said this on this blog numerous times:
How someone defines you does NOT become your definition of self.

The fact is...Tiger Woods is part Filipino whether or not white folks choose to define him that way. He doesn't become LESS Filipino on the days that whites don't acknowledge his Asian ancestry.

The decisions of whites SHOULD NOT have any thing to do with ancestral identity that individuals CHOOSE for themselves.

That remains my position and I have said it on this blog before.

I do understand those who have European blood lines due to rape of great-great-great grandparents not choosing to embrace that lineage however.

You made a comment that I want to respond quickly to. You said:

When the topic of boundaries or ownership comes up, you often seem to refer to examples of Black people (with very limited exposure to the world outside their poor Black neighborhoods) basing this on trivialities.

No, that is not what I was saying.

What I said was this:

All black people are not 100% African. Therefore, NO group of black people who are descendants of slaves in this country will get to decide which sub-categories to put other blacks in who are also descendants of slaves in this country.

I do not want to keep repeating what I already said in a conversation three months ago, but I will do so now, just for clarification:

NO group of blacks decides on sub-categories for other blacks.

It was what I articulated three months ago. It still has not changed. It will NOT change, no matter how many ways I hear that position that blacks CAN OR SHOULD decide on sub-categories for other blacks.

The statement I made about blacks who have limited exposure had to do with the comments I heard such as "that's for white folks".

Those two statements were made about different issues.

I asked for examples of what constitutes "OUR STUFF" and you mentioned scholarships for black women. Since VERY, VERY few black women are even relying on scholarships for black women, I am not sure THAT can be cited as the issue NOT to be in community with transgendered women.

I am not saying that YOU HAVE said black women should not be in community with transgendered women.

Those who are legally women WILL be able to have any access to anything that is for women.

Again, I will state that I am not sure WHAT resources black women have that is exclusively their own in the black community that IS NOT shared with black men or black children RIGHT NOW that would have to be SHARED with transgendered women if they had legal status as "women".

If a transgendered woman is legally defined as a woman and she is a mother, then YES, I believe she should receive whatever resources are available to black women who are also mothers.

If a transgendered woman is legally defined as a woman and there are resources for black women to receive AIDS medications then YES, I believe that whatever resources are available to black women should be made available to them.

Since there ARE NO resources that I possess now as a black women that I would suddenly have LESS OF if transgendered women were given legal status as women, there is NO reason (in my mind) to "invent" territories between black people as it relates to these transgender issues.

If black women ARE CONCERNED about "meager resources" being shared, then THAT should motivate them to lobby for MORE resources so they don't have to start creating territories around what is perceived as "meager" in the first place.

On that point, I do believe we will not agree.

Thank you again for adding more perspectives to this conversation.

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

___________________________________

Welcome JJBrock!

Thanks for stopping by!

I am happy to visit your blog! (smile)

I want to discuss issues at my blog that aren't being discussed by black women, and IF they are, then I try to present a different angle of discussing the topic.

There is no disrespect by you sharing your feelings that transgendered women are NOT viewed in your eyes as women.

This is how you feel.

Many, many women I have spoken to have shared those feelings.

I have ingrained conditioning in this society about gender identity as well. Most of us have those "traditional" definitions of "man" and "woman" in our minds. those who want to break OUT of those traditional definitions really have to make a committed effort to unlearn those societal parameters.

Sagacious Hillbilly mentioned that it was difficult to accept a person who made "the change" and I agree that it is. If someone has made the change when I encounter them, that is MUCH different than someone making the change after I have established a relationship with them with those social boundaries associated with the gender identity that the person had when the relationship began.

Many Mtf transgenders are taking female hormones, getting hip implants, butt implants and breast implants but are anatomically male.

Many people feel that transgendred persons look "freakish" but they really are thinking of a "drag queen" stereotype because MANY transgenders are completely undetectable.

There is a difference between a drag queen and a transgendered woman.

Thanks again for sharing so openly with everyone here!

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Rev. Lisa:

Many Christians believe that God has clear guidelines about the presentation of gender, and that God does not permit any modification to the expression of gender identity. In the last thirty years, I believe these theological issues have produced some intense discussions.

I read this piece about non-trans who write about trans issues:
http://sandystone.com/hale.rules.html

Transgender do not want to be misrepresented.

At Sandy Stone's website, she mentions that some people believe that sex and gender are inseparable. Persons who embrace this thought are referred to as Essentialists.

She goes further to say that Social Constructivists believe that both sex and gender arise in social interaction and have no existence independent of social interaction.

My reply:

I take a different ground, neither essentialist, nor exclusively social constructivist. I think one's sex has a genetic/biological component which then is developed through the social interactions that inform gender.

Most women are born with XX chromosomes; they are genetically female. What this means biologically, in terms of hormones, etc., has its own influence upon female development, independent of anything else.

Gender, how one defines female, comes from one's socialization within the family and elswhere in conjunction with the individual's psyche. It is far more fluid, because gender roles can be taken, developed, modified, etc.

So when it comes to transgendered/transsexual/transvestites, I see them as genetically whatever they were born with. If they experience a cognitive dissonence between their biology and their social identity, that is what they are. It is of no big concern to me except with respect to the mild curiosity I explained earlier.

As for the Christian take, I know there are readings from Paul on various concerns regarding irregularities in practices in one of the early churches, which led him to write about the very strictures many people speak of today and which they use to justify rejection of trans people: men should not wear women's clothes. Yet there were admonitions about women wearing their heads covered and not speaking in front of men, etc. Those practices for women have to all intents and purposes, been jettisoned...So is there willingness to jettison the other against the trans folk?

OG, The Original Glamazon said...

Lisa,

You are right about the make-up, I have always tried to be careful of too much because I have walked in the bathroom with a little unblended heavy eye and thought the same thing, I look tranny, or drag queen.

It's one reason I stick to bronzer, mascara, and lip gloss.

I know that was totally OFF topic.

Anyway, I really wanted to say that I feel the same why about my Christianity, my grandmother always say you can only get you to heaven, no one else. In to me the ability to love your brother is a decision I have made for my christian walk.

Very interesting viewpoints. Stilll trying to take it all in.

-OG

Khadija said...

Camo,

You said, "So if trans people reject us and PoC reject us, then who can we reach out to? We are alone."

I would respectfully suggest that trans PoC reach out to each other first.

From what I've read over the years in the local gay media (Windy City Times), Black gays found that gay Whites are just as likely to be racist as their "straight" counterparts. It seems that this is part of the reason why Black gays organized their own Black gay pride events throughout the country.

It wouldn't surprise me if White transgendered persons are just as likely to be racist as the rest of the White population.
___________________________________

Lisa,

These are some "agree to disagree" points. Thanks for raising an issue that is almost never discussed in Black circles.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Renee said...

Thanks so much for bringing this issue forward. Like you I read many black blogs and often find that there is very limited discussion when it comes to transgender. It seems as though there identity creates them as invisible within the black community. When you look at incidents like what happened to Duanna Johnson and the silence from the community how can you help but not be disgusted. Had she presented as a black male that was subjected to police brutality Jesse Jackson would have been on the first plane.
We need to own them as a part of ourselves and a part of humanity. I firmly believe that we cannot achieve justice until we are willing to seek it for the least amongst us.

Jackie said...

Absolutely Excellant post, Lisa!
Your list of myths was right on. I know a few Transgendered women, both white and black and only one Transman. I feel I know more than the average person perhaps on this complex issue, and yet I know for a fact I don't know much. But, one thing I can say positivily is that my friends that are Trans are and have to be the gender they perceive themselves to be. When I say, have to be, I mean they could not live without making that change. To understand that gender is not a rigid concept, that gender is not always in concert with genitalia is difficult for some to accept. But, I cannot understand how some people feel they have the right to tell others they do not have the right to live.
I don't expect people to suffer to make me comfortable.
I just put up a post with a interview with my friend Alex and the author of The Transgendered Child: A Handbook for Families and Professionals. When listening to children and teens who are Trans I understand how important people who educate, and open eyes and hearts are. People like you, Lisa.
Thank you.

Super Hussy said...

This is fabulous! For someone of color to even address this in a positive and meaningful way means a lot. It is time that we embrace all of our black womanhood and stop trying to compartmentalize and dismiss those who "are not like us."

SjP said...

Lisa, very interesting post and commentary. This is an issue that I little about and therefore feel somewhat unqualified to voice an opinion here. Although, just in reading - I realize that I do have some fundamental/simple thoughts.

1. Who can be a Christian: I think it inappropriate for anyone to determine who can/not be a Christian. To me, that equates to who God loves/does not love. I know from my Bible that God loves me - "the least of these" and challenges me to do the same. Only God knows the hearts of "man" and it will be His Knowledge that determines who will enter the Gates of Heaven.

2. I do not have many gay, lesbian, or transgendered friends our paths have crossed in the past for one reason or another. I have done my best to make sure that I treat them as I would want to be treated regardless of my own biases or prejudices. I believe that everyone should be treated justly. Period.

3. What I don't understand about the transgender community (or the GL community for that matter) is the need to "go over the top" in appearence and deamenor. Why? Must admit, that I too often see them as "characters" playing a role rather that real.

The questions you pose here are ones that I really have to ponder. You got me thinking...as usual {smile}.

SjP

LISA VAZQUEZ said...

Welcome Camo!

Thank you for sharing your views in this conversation!

I do understand that sometimes it IS difficult to find a support base among "your own people".

Sometimes I feel that way too...in a room full of black women! We would ALL love to turn to our own for support but the reality is that it just does not turn out that way all the time.

You are not alone.

You are online engaging with different people and everyone has different perspectives.

There is an online community of so many bloggers who would be willing to understand...just read those comments here and visit those blogs.

You can come to this blog as much as you like. You will never be rejected here. It's my house.

I hope that you will know that you are not alone - even when among black women who are born "female". There are black women who feel the way that I do!

Many black women do not understand transgendered women and A LOT of that lack of understanding of transgender issues has to do with a lack of exposure and a lack of discussion among black women about transgenders.

No one becomes enlightened about any group that they are NEVER in contact with.

I do the same things with my transgender friends that I do with my friends who are not transgender - we go to the movies, we go to outdoor cultural events, we go to church, we go out to eat, we go out for icecream in the evenings, we just hang out. Transgendered people like to do all the things that non-transgendered people do!

Everywhere we go, people are staring and so what? I don't care who is staring. We often go to the same restaurants so all of the employees know my "crew" even if the other stunned diners do not! I noticed that many male waiters who would act afraid or nervous around my friends when we FIRST started frequenting a particular restaurant now will come over to the table and joke around even if we are not in their assigned section or wave at us when we come in.

People start realizing that my friends are human beings who laugh, cry and tell terrible jokes just like their friends do!! *LOL*

I hope that you will not confuse the rampant ignorance that exists in the black community about transgenders with hatred of transgenders or with rejection of transgenders.

For the most part, I have observed black men showing "hateration" to transgendered women. Some men in the church were laughing at my friends and I told my friends to feel free to handle that disrespect HOWEVER they chose to, and that I would deal with those church folks behind the scenes on my OWN....

I put quite a few people in check about how much ridicule and rudeness and insulting stares are NOT reflective of Jesus.

If you would like the participants in this discussion to read other online resources, you are welcome to share them.

Thanks again for coming into this conversation.

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

_________________________________

Welcome PVW!

Thank you for sharing your perspectives.

You are right that there can't be JUST two categories that non-transgender people fall into... Essentialists and Social Constructivists.

What do you feel the reaction would be from the congregation if a group of black MtF transgenders came to your church on Sunday morning...and how would you address the reaction (if it were negative)?

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

__________________________________

Welcome O.G.!

I completely agree with your viewpoints! I am glad that Camo, who spoke about rejection, can see that there ARE sistas like you and like me who ARE Christians and who do not reject or ridicule transgenders while using the Bible as a justification.

Thank you again for sharing!

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
_________________________________

Welcome Renee!

Thank you for stopping by!

I am always glad to have your contributions here - whether we agree or disagree! You always have insightful perspectives to share with all of us!

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

________________________________

Welcome Jackie!

Thank you for finding my blog! I hope that you will come back often and share!

I will stop over at your blog and read the interview you referenced!

I plan to write more about transgendered women at my blog but this is a new blog that has only been up for four months so I am still introducing an entire "menu" of issues that I like to talk about! (smile)

And no, I am NOT the most popular person in my church! *LOL* But I am surely the most talked-out! {shrugs} Someone HAS to go against the "status quo church-folk mentality" so it may as well be ME!

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

__________________________________

Welcome Jackie!

Thank you so kindly for your words of encouragement!

I get a few "snarky" email notes from time to time so it's always nice to hear some cheers to balance it all out! (smile)

As a child, I was taught to view gender identity in association with genitalia because my parents were Essentialists in their thinking about gender. In my parents' minds, your anatomy determines your gender, period, end of story!

As an adult, I began to change my thinking and I became Social Constructivist in my thinking about gender. I began writing more and thinking more about gender and whether it is actually fluid. Once I reached a point when I decided that yes, gender can be fluid, then I began to ask myself just HOW fluid can gender be for an individual.

Does any person have a right to decide the degree of fluidity that another human being can chose for himself or herself? No.

I tend to have a rigid expression of my OWN gender identity but that doesn't mean that I feel others can not be fluid with their own.

Thanks so much for adding to this dialogue!

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
________________________________

Welcome S.H.!

Thank you for finding my blog! I hope that you will return often and ...um...spread the word about this new "controversial" blog that you stumbled upon! (smile)

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
________________________________


Welcome SjP!

Thank you for stopping by my place! There's always something cooking! (smile)

Please feel free to come back anytime and add to this conversation! We'll still be here!

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

wisdomteachesme said...

SJP said ="3. What I don't understand about the transgender community (or the GL community for that matter) is the need to "go over the top" in appearence and deamenor. Why? Must admit, that I too often see them as "characters" playing a role rather that real."
--------------

i see many straight people as characters also. LOL the way they dress, esp these so called movie stars. pick a group of people--in every group you have 'over the top' people when it comes to how they wish to be seen by the public at large.

for the same reasons as many lg/trans/ dress this way--so do many straight women and men dress 'over the top!"
wanting to be the main focus in public is not solely contained in the lg world.

hoochie women & men, rappers, even the upper crust with their fur and jewlery and hair, holding their little dogs- All of it is over the top in appearance.

so it is not really a straight or lesbian or gay or trans thing--it's a human thing. seeking to be the center of attention and the coolest has always been around and will always be around.
low self esteem is free to all that have taken hold of it and feed it.

good points all around.

A said...

Most transgender people are probably emotionally wounded because of the difficult and lonely childhoods they must haave due to the gender identity issues.

SjP said...

@ Wisdomteachesme, I see your point and it is well taken. I didn't intend to imply that "over the top" appearence/demeanor was contained soley in the glbt community. And as I think about it, when I encounter the "others" you describe, I ask the same question, WHY?

JJ said...

Off Topic:

You're an INTP too? LOL. Welcome to the club!

Monica Roberts said...

First off, i wanted to corret some misinformation about the East germa woemn's swim team.

East Germany in order to build an athletic superpower fed their biowomen athletes steroids and put them on intensive wieght training programs.

long story short, feed a biofemale testosterone at the levels the east Germans were doing it and you'll end up with an Andreas Krieger.

Now, it's time for a transwoman to tell you what it's like to live my reality. The best way i can describe it is to imagine that you are the sam person with all the hopes, dreams thoughts and desires related to being female, but they are housed in your brother's (or some other male relative's body.

That's transgender in a nutshell.

Now, all human life at conception is FEMALE One of the theories as to what causes transsexuality (the medical term) is that somewhere between the 8-12 week of pregnancy, in order for the female fetus to become a male child, it gets a hormone wash of testosterone to trigger its development on the male path.

The hormone wash' theroy is that in a transwoman, the fetus got enough testo to kickstart the male developent path bodywise, but not enough to masculinize the brain.

The reverse is true for transmen. Brain gets masculinized, but not the body.

sdg1844 said...

Great topic. Real talk? I've never spent alot of time thinking about trans-gender issues. I've seen plenty here in San Francisco and I've always pondered what some of the "Men" who feel/identify with women actually believe women are?

Being a woman or a man is more than just genitalia. It is an experience in life and a way of seeing and viewing the world.

I remember watching a program on PBS where a man in his 30's made the change and went to Thailand for his surgery.

There is a surgeon there who is renowned for his ability to build "vaginas". I looked at this man who was making the change and thought, you've spent over 30 years with testosterone pounding away at you physiologically and have been treated a certain way due to being a "man" biologically.

How does he make this move to womanhood? It's a question that continues to fascinate me in the reverse as well.

Monica Roberts said...

@sdg,
How does someone socialized as a male make the move to the other side of the gender fence?

Easily.

As I was growing up I got plenty of clues and hints that my thoughts, ideas and the way I looked at the world didn't fit with the masculine body I was housed in.

I discovered that when I began my HRT (hormone replacement therapy) that my baseline testosterone count was well below normal masculine range and close to the feminine range.

as for the surgery, they've been doing GRS (genital reconstruction surgery) for so long now (over 50 years) that only a trained gynecologist can tell whether they are examining a neovagina or an original equipment one.

Much of what we learn about gender roles is taught, so in the end it's simply unlearning what you were taught, and quickly learning the rules of your new gender role.

Go Go Jo Jo said...

This has been a pretty interesting post. And I'm glad to have read it (and stumbled onto this blog.)

My personal position is that we as Black women have so much against us that we don't have time dividing ourselves more. Now most of my experience with trans community has been with FtM transmen. But I grew up in a large city (Houston) attend a large "urban" high school (3,000 students on our main campus) that was predominately PoCs--and through that experience have known MtF transwomen of color.

Back to my point. To me *both* sex category (what we are assigned at birth) and gender (how we present in the world) are fluid and constructed. A great book that talks about the social construction of sex category is Ann Fausto-Sterling's Sexing the Body.

Believing this to be true I don't believe that I have the right to judge how someone identifies themselves. I think that we as Black women are told far to often what being a "woman" means and far too often we don't get to count. Being a Black woman is all about (to me) re-/self-define classic definitions of what it means to be a woman especially in the U.S. and I'm not going to pretend to have the right to take that right define from anyone else.

As to the question of transwomen (and transmen) finding community in the church, I decided long ago that I gave up on the representation of God as a hateful man who was waiting to caste us all into the pits of hell at the slightest infraction against religious doctrine.

As a Black queer woman, I decided instead to believe in a God who made me in his/her image. And who said that he loved me despite my faults (even though I to clarify don't see my ability to love other women as a sin, thanks) and all s/he asked of me was to have faith in him/her and that s/he would take me where I was meant to go in life. And that path has included relationships with women and men. So...God works in mysterious ways and I don't/won't claim to know what they are. And I wish that more people in the church would stop trying to as well.

From the congregation to the clergy--none of us are God. And while yes I'm sure God speaks to us all in our own individual ways--I truly don't want to believe that s/he's telling someone that they should hate or fear me or anyone else. And besides doesn't it say somewhere that you should love thy neighbor and treat others as you would want to be treated? If you're open to being ostracized, in a near constant fear of physical/mental/sexual assault or abuse, and with little to no legal protection--then I guess you can cast that first stone if you want.

As a side note I was wondering if there was an intentional reason for putting sistas in quotes and your lack of pronoun usage when talking about the transwomen in your post?

Véronique said...

Hello, Rev. Lisa. Monica Roberts of TransGriot posted a link to your blog, so here I am.

Thank you for your post and for your welcoming attitude! I'm not a Christian, but I appreciate how you put your own beliefs into practice.

It's interesting to read the comments on this topic. I wish I had time to read them all.

I can't change anyone else's point of view. I can't change how people view me or think of me. But I know who and what I am.

I was born male bodied, but my brain is female. That's not a gender role. It's something in my brain, probably physiological, that has always told me that the body I was in just wasn't right for me. It took me a long time to come to terms with this, but I am now in the process of transition. I identify as a woman. People who know me know that I am a woman.

I am as emotionally stable as they come. I made the decision to transition because I really needed to, but I made it with my eyes wide open and under no duress.

I find that most natal women I know accept me as female. Is this more likely in the white community of which I am a part? I don't know. I never attempt to barge into women's spaces. They either accept me or they don't. I still know who and what I am.

Oh, I use women's washrooms because there is no way I can use men's washrooms any longer. That would be very unsafe for me.

One thing some of the comment writers might want to keep in mind. When a trans woman has finished transition, including surgery, she is little different from a natal woman with Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome. Women with AIS have XY chromosomes but are female in appearance because testosterone doesn't have any effect on them. That's one reason why chromosomes don't determine sex. The brain, however, will always have things its own way.

Natasha Yar-Routh said...

Lisa, great discussion and excellent handling of the issues. We trans-folk are a fractious community and I don't think there are any experts, just a lot of people with their own points of view.

Speaking entirely for myself and no one else I don't want to ride anyone's bra straps. The trans people I know are forging our own organizations to support us and fight for our rights. Most of us just want to get on with our lives and live as who we are.

LISA VAZQUEZ said...

Welcome Wisdom Teaches Me!

Thank you for sharing!

I agree with you that attention-seeking in appearance or behavior is NOT limited to the transgender community.

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
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Welcome A!

Thank you for finding my blog!
Please feel welcome to return and share often!

Do you have some research on transgenders that you have reviewed that you can offer? I would like to read more.

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
_________________________________

Welcome Sojourners Place!

Thanks for stopping by my neighborhood!

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
___________________________________

Welcome JJ!

Yes, I am an introvert!

Many people are surprised to learn that because they think that I am extremely extroverted and gregarious!

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
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Welcome Sdg1844!

Thank you for adding to this conversation!

What I have found is that many black women can not accept transwomen as women. When I press them to share why they do not think of transwomen as women, they will say things like, "look at them!" and I don't understand that rationale.

I remember the New York shock jock, Wendy Williams, saying in an interview, "Queen Latifah's a dude!" No one in the black community expressed any outrage at that characterization of Dana Owens.

The transwomen who are friends of mine have found it difficult to mimick a "female" voice and they sometimes move their bodies differently than a woman ordinarily would. It takes time to adopt some of the nuances of female expression.

I didn't realize that being "female" required practice but for MtF transgender, there is a learning curve involved.

The reason why black women do not seem to feel that transwomen are "real" women is that they can still detect maleness and for some reason, THAT makes them feel uncomfortable.

I would like some sistas in this discussion to help shed more light on that.

Thanks again for joining in!

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
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Welcome Monica Roberts!

Thank you so much for your contribution to this conversation!

I believe that gender identity is taught.

I haven't read any thing about the biophysical differences in fetal development. I would like to read more about that if you have some online resources that you believe are credible.

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
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Welcome GoGoJoJo!

Thank you for finding my blog!

I don't have many discussions about the transgender community or about the lesbian community at this blog but I believe that there are many issues that we should discuss openly.

To answer your question, "yes" my reason for using the word "sistas" in quotations was intentional. It was to draw attention to the premise of the post - which was to discuss whether or not transwomen can be included in our understanding of black womanhood. From the responses received, I do not believe that most black women consider transwomen to be "real" women. What will change that perception? I am not sure.

You asked about my omission of feminine pronouns in reference to transwomen.

I have found that only transwomen use feminine pronouns to refer to one another. I have noticed a few persons who are NOT trans who use those pronouns as part of embracing the norms within the trans community, however.

I find that the majority of those persons who ascribe to anatomical gender identification do not do so. I am a Social Constructivist in my beliefs but I do not use feminine pronouns for transwomen or masculine pronouns for transmen because nearly everyone who is not part of the trans community does not know who I am referring to when I do that and therefore, I use my friends' names when referring to them in conversations with non-trans persons.

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

________________________________

Welcome Veronique!

Thank you for finding my blog!

Even if Monica had not linked to me, you would still be welcome to stop by and chat! (smiles)

The sign on my lawn says:
Black Women, Blow The Trumpet!

There is a lot of estrogen up in heyah! *LOL*

I invite a few of the fellas to drop by and holla!

Peace, blesings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

Kit (Keep It Trill) said...

Hi Lisa. You invited me for an opinion on this post and specifically what I thought about "biophysical fetal development", I suppose in relation to gender identity.

I read a study years ago that showed this. Pregnant lab cats or rats had hormone shots. When the pregnant female was give masculine hormones, the resulting female babies, when they entered puberty, would show sexual behavior of males, ie, mounting other females. The opposite case was true too.

From this we can guess that one of the factors that affects sexual attractions has to do with the prenatal hormones of the mother washing the brain of the fetus.

Some environmental pollutants affect hormones, which could affect the fetus IF it is at a critical developmental stage relating to gender orientation. No, I don't know when this is.

Stress affects them too. I *think* I read that plastic-wrapped food falls into this category. Soy products, toted as being good for menopausal women (but also linked with dementia in later life), may be a suspect.

You'll need to google for any of this information if you want to find out more and confirm it. Hope this was a helpful start.

~ Kit

LISA VAZQUEZ said...

Welcome K.I.T.!

Thank you so much for stopping by and commenting.

I appreciate your suggestion!

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

Monica Roberts said...

Lisa,
Back in 2000 when I was pondering why the corridor between Houston and New Orleans seemed to have a large concentration of transgender people, it struck me that the area between Houston and New Orleans also contains 1/5 of the petrochemical plants in the United States.

I noted that the other areas where petrochemical plants are clustered (New York-NJ area, Chicago, San Francisco-Los Angeles, Cleveland, Tampa-St. Pete, eastern Kentucky) also seemed to have large concentration of transgender people as well.

Exodus Mentality said...

Greetings Lisa,

Thanks for the invitation. I haven't been getting out to visit my blogging family in a while, and you've been busy. There's a lot since the last time I was here. But you wanted a male perspective on this topic.

I'm not a Christian, but I consider anyone who claims to follow Jesus but looks down on anyone else to be a hypocrite. I have no trans associates, but its not because I have anything against anyone. I am a firm believer in you doing you as long as it doesn't hurt me. How I feel personally about what you do is of no matter and I won't ever mention it unless asked directly. I certainly see no reason why someone should be treated differently because of how they dress or what other consenting adult they choose to get busy with.

I try to take everyone on a case by case basis, so I've known people who seemed to fit one or more of the myths, but I still wouldn't paint every transgender with the same broad brush. Just like any other group, some are great people and some are confused people, and some are probably not very nice people. But you never know until you get to know them as people.

Some of the discussion into the concept of group think and group identity was very interesting as well. I'm one who thinks a lot of the world's problems can be laid directly at the feet of some group or another who felt their group identity was more important than pretty much anything else. Everyone protecting a little group needs to consider the larger group they belong to, Homo Sapiens. We didn't all come over on the same ship, but we're all in the same boat now.

That's the Exodus Mentality on this issue. Hope it makes sense to someone other than me ;)

chatnoir said...

I am a little late,but I have to drop a peso here.
Bear with me I am no and english native.I will be a little long too.

As a black man I never had a problem with transsexual, I read some of the comments here but I find it interesting that everyone actually has the POWER to decide whether transgender is acceptable or NOT and whether it is pathology or a caricature of either of the gender.Talk about privilege.Here is one for ya. I know some people want an award because they appear "humanist" . A transgender has been beaten to death with a fire extinguisher by five white youth.They are now walking free.All of them.

Now in regards to the african ancestry i know African americans routinely oppose african ancestry to the african heritage. The first is used to claim the pain of the past and it is legitimate the later is considered a mere feature. I believe I have the right to feel deeply insulted. I did not know 10 or 20%of admixture makes someone NON african.All whites in the US have admixture yet they never deny being of european background, but black people panic when they are "reduced" to their africanity.