There is a lot of discussion about the statistics regarding black women and their probability of marriage. It is estimated that 50% of black women will never marry. There are more than 20 million black women in this country. For those who feel discouraged by those statistics, don't be: There are still wonderful black men out there who want to marry a phenomenal black woman!
I was talking to one of my (married) exes on the phone the other night. During our conversation, he made a statement that seemed odd to me: "I just can not believe YOU never married! Come on, how many guys asked you?" I responded, "If we don't count you, one guy." He chuckled, "I heard Allen asked you to marry him..." I laughed and said, "...that doesn't even count!"
We started discussing the 2007 movie, "Why Did I Get Married?" and I asked him why he got married. He asked why I had never married. I told him that I had never met a man who I believed was God's choice as my life partner. I didn't have a long list of reasons for not being married, as did the women in church whom I had talked to over the years. I didn't have any lamentations about "good" black men being scarce. I have often encountered solid black men in different settings, but that didn't lead me to feel that they all should be vetted as potential husbands.
My ex made a comment that caused my jaw to hit the floor: "You really don't want to be anyone's wife, Lisa..." I immediately protested.
I asked myself after I hung up the phone: Is it true?
After thinking about that question, I wanted to write about marriage and invite women who are not married to have an honest dialogue about why we are not married. Really.
WHAT WOMEN SAY
Many black women believe that there is a black husband shortage in this country. These are the usual ten responses I receive from women:
Too many black men are emotionally-immature.
Too many black men want a romanticized, sexualized image of a wife.
Too many black men are sexually immature.
Too many black men are not spiritually-grounded.
Too many black men are insecure about marrying successful, independent women.
Black men who would be sought-after as marriage partners are dating women of other races.
Black men who would be sought-after as marriage partners are on the down low and want to have wives as props so that they can keep swinging.
Degreed, professional black women far outnumber the degree, professional black men.
Too many black men who could be suitable life long mates have children out of wedlock.
Too many black men who could be suitable life long mates can not be primary breadwinners.
WHAT MEN SAY
Many black men believe that there is a scarcity of suitable black women to marry. This is the list that men often give when they are in discussions with ministers:
Which factors would deem a woman less desirable as a marital partner?
Women who have unresolved anger towards their fathers or towards men.
Women who are domineering and critical.
Women who have control issues.
Women who have low self esteem and are deeply insecure and emotionally-needy.
Women who have been sexually violated or physically abused in childhood or in adulthood. (Those who have not thoroughly worked through their survivorship issues.)
Women who are self-centered.
Women who have siblings and mothers who are allowed to meddle in their lives.
Women who are too attached emotionally to having family validation and approval.
Women who were forced to grow up too soon.
Women who have managed their lives poorly.
Women who have never seen positive, healthy examples of solid marriages.
Women whose parents had an exploitative, abusive or imbalanced relationship. (Those who have not addressed the wounds and negative expectations that resulted from it.)
Women who have not learned how to have friendships with men.
Women who are career-obsessed.
Women who do not get along with their future in laws.
WHAT MAKES BLACK WOMEN GREAT WIVES
In an online discussion at this blog in April, we discussed the qualities that black women possess that would make them desireable as wives:
(These are generalizations but work with them for a moment!)
Black women are loyal by nature.
Black women love children.
Black women are spiritual.
Black women want to marry black men instead of marrying outside of their race.
Black women are creative.
Black women are taught to be care takers.
Black women are taught to put others' needs first.
Black women tend to be family-oriented.
Black women value being independent.
Black women are highly communicative and emotionally perceptive.
THE REALITY CHECK
It is likely that some will read the list of what the men had to say and start making comments that many black men marry women of low caliber. The assumption that must be made is that those types of men were not the respondents who provided this list. It is likely that some will remark that black men are choosing to marry white women who are not highly desired by white men. Black men who marry outside of our race marry Latina and Asian women as well and I haven't heard any discussion about the caliber of Latina and Asian women whom they are married to. Remember, blaming never produces introspection. The good news is that statistics reveal that the majority of black men who marry will marry a black woman.
Questions
1. Are demographics the real reason so many black women are not married?
2. Is there anything valid in the men's reasons for lack of marriage-suitability of some women?
3. What could black women share that would promote the idea of our desirability and suitability as wives?
4. How important is marrying "up" to you? To black women in general?
5. How important is the socioeconomic class background of a man to you? To black women in general?
6. Do you believe that emotional and historical baggage that is reflected in expectations and attitudes can become a disqualifying factor in marriage suitability?
7. What qualities do you feel are important in choosing a husband? (Assumed: shared goals, shared values, strong work ethic, compatibility, intellectual attraction, emotional and mental stability, moral leadership, fiscal maturity and financial acumen, professional excellence)
8. What should the marriage preparation process consist of? (I did not say wedding preparation!)
Many of the blog hosts are now discussing the political scene. We can talk about that too and there are a couple of posts on this blog relating to that. For those who want a short break from discussing politics, let's talk about marriage!
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RELATED READING(Click on title.)
"Top Ten Reasons Why It's Hard To Date A Black Woman"
Thursday, June 5, 2008
DECONSTRUCTING THE HUSBAND SHORTAGE & THE SCARCITY OF BLACK WIVES
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24 COMMENTS:
Hi Rev Lisa,
This should be interesting. I can't comment b/c I'm married and you asked for opinions from unmarried persons. I hope and pray that individuals are open, honest, and thoughtful. This is a subject that I'm very interested in.
Peace
Welcome Hagar's Daughter!
There is so much conversation about politics that it's nice to switch into something ELSE! (smile)
I realize that I didn't answer the eight questions so I'll get the ball rolling:
1. No
2. Yes
3. The benefit of family support systems and how positive family support systems can help a marriage.
4. Marrying "up" is important to me. I don't believe it is important to most black women, however.
5. Being with a man who is from a similar socioeconomic class background is important to me. It is not the top item on my husband suitability list, however. I think that socioconomic class background matters to some sistas but not many since most sistas I have met are in a different socioeconomic class background as adults than they were identified with in childhood.
6. Yes. I believe it is a factor for men and for women.
7. I believe that God will decide who my husband is. If He gives me a choice between two guys, however, I would look first at a man's spiritual constitution who was being considered as someone I could marry. If he doesn't pass THAT then I probably would not continue the vetting process.
8. I firmly believe that marriage can alter a person's destiny if the wrong partner is chosen. The marriage preparation process should consist of listening for God and understanding God's desires and expectations for the union. I believe that both persons must clearly understand God's blueprint for the marriage. I'll keep thinking about this question and share more as we go deeper in this group dialogue.
Thanks for stopping by!
I hope that we will have an honest and deep conversation. I think it's an important topic!
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
As expected great article from you Lisa. From the statistics 70% black women are single and 60% of black men are also single. I think that people spend more time getting an appartment or a car, than on getting a partner. Women spend time asking God to send them a man and when the man comes, sometimes they are not happy about the man and sometimes the man does not come and they are told, they have a 'gift' and God wants them to be single and yet they still suffer the longings and loneliness. That is why we have a at lot of women, single women in the black churches using didoes and vibrators. At the moment, I am presently writing articles about this. When I was first married, I asked for my husband to be tall, look like the lead singer from Cameo, be of Guyanese background, but lives in UK and university educated. I did get what I wanted, but the marriage, although it yielded my greatest blessing, our daughter, my marriage was a disaster. I feel that we are free agents, we have domination over the earth and we have to call God into our lives. The Holy spirit waits until you call him in. Now from my experience of my marriage, I realise that Robert was never suited to me, and I to him. I changed my church last year and I read the book 'The Secret' also the DVD and Naploean Hill. I bought Teachings of Creflo Dollar, Bill Winston and Leroy Thompson. I started to learn to speak God's words over my own situation, and so far I am on an amazing journey. I feel the my relationship with God, is I can't really describe it. I am at peace and I realise that all my needs will be taken care of, all I have to do, is express God's glory in my writing and I am writing stories, poems, blogs etc. For a long time, black women have been stuck in a mindset of what they can and can't have, this is the worlds' way of keeping us in a prison. Our black churches have not helped at all, they keep up the prison mindset. There is the school of thought that you should pray and let God, choose the husband for you, and there is another school is that you make the first move and ask God to help you. I am from the second school of thought, God helps those, who help themselves. In this journey of getting a husband, I started to read Esther and Ruth and I think that those ladies apply to our lives today. First of all, we have to realise that we are beautiful woman and we have to get passages from the bible telling us that. We are fearfully and wonderfully made
We are black but comely. We are fair and beautiful etc, and say what Gods says about us. To hell what the media or statistics say, they are demon controlled. We prepare ourselves to be wives, mothers and have successful marriages. Our goal should be a successful loving marriage until we leave this mortal realm. We need to write down what we want in our marriages, and we have to be very specific, detailed. Habakkak 2:2-3, we write down the physical aspects of our husbands, the personality, spirituality everything and what you can doing that the Holy Spirit starts to teach you and he asks you to add more things to your list, you also have a make a list about yourself, physical, personality and spirituality and ask God to work on things with you. We women forget men think differently from us, we still have to keep ourselves looking nice, even after we had our children. How many churches teach us that. Sex is a way a husband and wife connect, also your marriage is your altar, that is why you cannot take your problems in your marriage bed, it should be you, your husband and God only. He has to bless you. Your bedroom you share with your husband is sacred, your girlfriends, married or single be allowed to go there, or look at all, I am really serious about this, because how nice they are bring the wrong energy, even if they are your best friends and Spirit of God and the romance and marriage angels, will leave your bedroom, even your parents, providing they are blessing parents, otherwise they should be not be there also. Your children may spend a few minutes, but they should know that this is mummy and daddy's room and they have to knock. The world is an abundant place, if we are honest and sincere of what you want, you ask, you believe and you receive and you start thanking God for your husbands and your children. God will put other qualities that you did not ask for in your husband. One of the reason's why black women are still single, because even if they want a black men, many forget that there are black man, in other parts of the world. British Virgin Islands, Bahamas, Martinique, there are wealthy single black men, or we get media telling you that non-black men are not attracted to black woman, that is simply a lie. Black women go and live in Sweden, Norway, UK, Denmark, Korea, Spain, France, Germany, Italy, Japan and they will manage to get husbands and children. If black women are attracted to Keanu Reeves, Brad Pitt or Andy Garcia, we are ashamed, because what our parents would say, what our friends would say, or the BC, what about our brothers, when they got off and marry non-black women. When black men are making love to their non-black wives, are they studying other black women who are single, absolutely not. We need to concentrate on a man who loves us, who wants to marry us and make us their queen. If it is good on God's eyes, and others don't like it and they condem, I afraid, they work for the devil and his demons. I married what was acceptable to my parents, and that ended in total disaster. Psalm 27:10, when my father and my mother forsake me, then the Lord shall take me up. Again the mindset to keep black woman controlled and destroy us. Even in Alaska, black women have a chance of getting a husband, there are 5 men to 1 woman. Hispanic, White, Native American, Asian and those men will fight for you, because of competition. The reason why white women, Hispanic and Asian get men, because they say to themelves over and over, I'm going to get someone, I are so gorgeous. Faith regardless of religion works. If we say, I am absolutely beautiful, thank you God, I'm going to meet gorgeous wonderful men today, we go out thinking that, smiling. You will be suprising what will happen. The angels harken to our words. Psalm 103:20. Do we talk to our angels, do we know their names? We call the negative in our life, we never once all the positive. I am glad to say that some black women are breaking away from the mindset, but we still have a long way to go. We need to stop listening to what demons say about us and listen to what God says about us. We can get, the world in big enough and there is more men to go around, and there is no shortages.
Hi Lisa, I guess I should jump right into this since I'm unmarried. Except, unlike you, I think marriage is VERY political, so I'm not sure how much this can be divorced from politics. Also, I too have been told that the reason why I'm in my 30s and still unmarried is because I don't want to be a "wife," and my eyes are finally opening and realizing that, yes, I have not been imagining myself in wife mold. I've fantasized the whole "bride" thing. Wife thing? Not so much.
And as a Christian-raised woman who has been prepped all my life to want to be wife and mother, I'm seriously having to rethink these things.
So, to answer your questions:
1. I think to a certain extent demographics affect black women's marriageability. Case in point: I've been employed at my university, located in an area that has few eligible black men in my socioeconomic class, and the non-black men in my class status or either already married or not seriously considering me as potential wife material. One of the few who I would have considered dating had already revealed that, as a Jew, he wants to marry a Jewish woman. The fact that he is now cohabiting with a Gentile doesn't convince me that he has abandoned his ideals, as he would be married to that woman by now. I've also made a decision not to settle for cohabitation. The first guy in the area to ask me out on a date was a white Italian guy, who later turned out to be a married man. This started a pattern in which most of the guys hitting on me were married. So, somehow there is a perception out there that black women make better mistresses than wives. I don't waste my time with married men, because I don't believe in having illicit affairs and man-sharing. The next set of eligible men I've dated have all been divorced, so none of this is really ideal for me. It's why I've had a very take-it-or-leave-it approach, since I've got my own place, am pretty content with my job, and value my independence. As a creative writer and educator, I've got these insane ideals for myself, and as much as there is an eligible black male shortage, which feels very real to me, I realize I could do it alone and would rather be unpartnered than settle for less. Of course, I do realize that when my desire to have a baby kicks in (I'm anticipating by the time I'm past age 36) I'm going to change my tune. And I'm worried about that, because I've had so many friends who did the desperation dance to have a baby, and they love their children but are not happy with their current situations. I hope I can keep some perspective on this.
2. The compilation list of what men find lacking in marriage-suitable women seems rather nitpicky, to be honest. But, when you're a black man with choices in terms of the supply and demand, I guess they can afford to be. At least my reasons for not settling has to do with real problems (i.e. married or divorced/getting a divorce guys have major MAJOR baggage that they bring to the table) that get in the way of building towards the kind of relationship that would make me commit. I at least know I'm not going to be an ideal wife by any stretch of the imagination, and guys with failed marriages or who are already thinking of cheating on their marriages will not be a good fit for me. I'm less concerned with whether my ideals for a man are met as I am about whether or not his flaws are something I can live it, and it has to be the same for him. If he loves me enough, and I love him in return, this is much easier to deal with. When any man makes those kinds of laundry list of what they're not looking for, then I'm sorry; they don't want a woman. They want a robot! What woman doesn't have any of the emotional baggage on that list? Sure, women do the same thing, but honestly: you love who you love, and ALL those issues are the kinds of things you can work through when you care enough.
3. I think black women are so individualistic that I would say it depend on what they bring to the table. As a group, I think what we are known for - loyalty, strength, caretakers, high achievers, passionate, we AGE WELL compared to other women - are not necessarily what attracts in general. Men have been conditioned to want to marry weak, submissive, and dependent women, and we just don't fit the bill (it doesn't matter that many of us do, the perception is that, as a group, we don't). So, I think we need to consider how to alter men's attitudes and ideals so that these traits can be considered more attractive. Honestly, we make great poster girls for feminism. Femininity? Not so much. And, I for one, think that's a GOOD thing because, as I said, I've got issues with being somebody's "surrendered wife," especially if (sorry for the attitude) he is so much less than me.
4. I used to think it didn't matter about marrying "up" until I learned that the men I've dated really were intimidated by my PhD. I'm also considered pretty, so being smart and pretty is a a scary combination for men. They like you to be pretty and not so smart, or smart but not so pretty, since I do think men believe they need to feel superior to their woman in some way. I'm looking very hard for the man who doesn't mind a little idol worship while keeping it real since I'm a flawed individual. I'm currently experiencing a crush on a young man who's a former student, and I'm getting mixed signals from friends (one camp says it's unethical even though he has already graduated, while the other camp says, the older I get the better it is to hook up with a younger man anyway if I want to have children - one friend thinks the idol worship will be in place just cause he used to be my student: and this is how I know men and women are different, because my male colleagues think NOTHING about getting involved with their female students. I, on the other hand, am caught up in the moral dilemma of it all). Then, there is that pesky little thing called the PhD which many men are intimidated by.
I would also venture to say that this is what sets black women apart from other women. We let our moral dilemmas shape a lot our choices; for alot of women, "all is fair in love and war." I also believe, for many of us, we've had models of women doing it alone, so it's not out of the ordinary for many of us to NOT make marriage a top priority in our lives.
5. Educational equality is more important to me than economic, though I don't care about a matched degree, but at least a master's should be held.
6. The more I think about marriage suitability, the more I think about whether or not our values match sexually and spiritually. Everything else - cultural, social, economical - is extra, and that's because I can take care of myself. Whoever enters into my life must be a staff of support and not a crutch of dependency.
7. Shared values is one that I'm treasuring above all other qualities. I'll leave it at that. It's really hard finding that if you're a single black Christian woman who travels in progressive circles. Where is the progressive or radical Christian (because I find conservative Christians a real bore, and no, they can't match me intellectually)?
8. Marriage preparation should include some honest conversation about personal goals, how each other's goals complement each other, what would be an ideal living situation, are children on the horizon and if so, how many, and what we think an ideal wife or husband would be or ways that we may or may not fit those ideals. Are we okay about changing the rules and revolutionizing our roles (because, like I said, cannot see myself in the surrendered wife role at all), and making marriage fit who we are as a couple and as individuals?
Lisa Great BLog and here are my answers. I can't wait to have time at home to see what other women have answered. Great blog post!
1. While I believe demographics and the desire of most black women to marry black men is a big factor in why so many of us are not married, I also believe that it is also a part of the world today. All women are marrying later and most women who put in hours towards education and professional success often, in my opinion have goals of finding a mate that matches. To be honest as a girl I NEVER wanted to get married and my engagement party and rehearsal dinner was full of toasts from friends and family that reminded me of that. I just simply never thought I was the marry kind, not because I don’t think I have the qualities to be a good wife I just put marriage or love of a man way at the bottom of my needs and desires in life to be a productive human being. Of course when I got divorced I told everyone I told you I wasn’t the marrying kind. However I would have to say if I ever get married again, which I do not think will happen, the man I marry will be a man that I have no other choice but to marry. That was something the pastor who married me told us in counseling he said you should marry someone because you feel there is no other option, because marriage is hard and if you have way out you will take it. I guess he was right, I didn’t feel my ex was who I needed to married to.
2. No, I don’t think their reasons are any more valid than the reason listed by black women. I think we all spend far too much time focusing on things that are changeable. For me it is about the soul connections about finding your counterpoint in the other person’s soul, finding the yang to your ying. I think if we focused more on those things all the other superficial things we worry about would work out and take care of themselves. It is very seldom that you are going to find someone who truly values your beliefs and life philosophy that won’t line up with your fundamental tenants of living. Ex: IF I find a man that shares what I believe in fundamental and understands who I am fundamentally and loves that person, he will not be someone who won’t meet my standards. Sure he might not have a degree or earn more than me, but he will share my work ethic and dedication to life as I do so that other stuff is really trivial.
3. Nothing, I am old school. I don’t believe in advertising for a husband or a boyfriend. I think we should continue to be the great and strong women that we already are, then the men who are up for that and really looking for that will find us. The Bible talks about a man finding a good woman, finding implies we are to be sought. Being sought doesn’t mean we should be selling ourselves it means we should be displaying ourselves.
4. Marrying “up” is not important to me at all and never has been. My requirements, at this point in life, for marriage are to connect with that person. All the need for him to have more than me or be able to take care of me is not required. I just want him to be the man I love and I believe the man I love will be an exceptional man even if his collar is blue and he has his GED. I remember I use to have a married guy friend who told me I was dating beneath me and I need to find men who made more than me etc. He never could understand that I did need a man to take care of me like that. I always tried to tell him I don’t need a man I want a man. What that meant to me was I didn’t view marriage as a way to elevate my socio-economical status I view it as some one to help me cope with the world. My ex had a real problem with that because we were always neck and neck in the household as far as making money, even now I know if he knew I made the kind of money I did his ego would not be able to stand it. I don’t want to be with a man who needs that to love me, the need to be my “captain save a ho” so to speak. I do think that many young black professional women think they need to at the least marry equal if not up. It’s ashamed because I have dated so many good brothers who are not my professional or financial equal, they are out there and the make great husbands and fathers.
5. This is pretty similar to my answer to the previous question, not at all to me. I can take care of myself and I think that is one of my greatest assets. I often don’t even hint to men what I might make, because I think some may think they don’t have enough to be with me, which I think some of my black sister think. I knew quite a few women who need to have the man make more than her or as much. To be frank if I required that the pool of men I date would be very small because generally men who make the kind of money I do are already married or spoken for or working 200 hours a week. *lol* .
6. Yes, totally
7. The number one quality I look for besides those assumed qualities is a man that I feel comfortable being a woman, by that I have to feel that he can take care of me and get me through those tough times and allow me to be vulnerable with out recourse.
8.Communication exercises, role playing, personality test, extensive counseling and deep prayer. Really as someone who has been married, there is no preparation for marriage NONE. You can study up and try to be prepared but do that knowing that you still are not prepared.
I've never been one to put race as a deciding factor as a mate. I'm looking for a MAN, a good man, who will treat me right...as I do likewise. Skin color is the LEAST of my concerns.
Now, having said that, I'd probably have to be truthful and said that a lot of the issues that men have with women I probably have. I grew up in a family where the only strong male role model was my granddaddy. My father, my stepfather, my uncles, my aunts' boyfriends, my cousins' boyfriends, my best friends' men - many of them were bad men...and many of them has issues that when compounded with a relationship, made those issues astronomical.
It's really hard to let go of some of the hang ups so that you can FIND that someone.
In the end, I think it's key to know, to truly know who you are, what you want, and what your dealbreakers are. If you're not fully happy with yourself, it will be nearly impossible to be happy WITH someone.
I am in a long term relationship of 18 years this month without saying I do. I never intend to walk down an aisle. Marriage is a failed institution and maybe black women are finally getting wise. I don't see the point of spending a fortune, giving up your identity ( name change), declaring sexual chastity etc when chances are it is not going to last anyway.
Welcome Felicity!
Welcome AnxiousBlackWoman!
Welcome O.G.!
Welcome Renee!
Welcome ChickLitGurrl!
I read all of the comments and rich insights and WOW!!
Thank you for contributing to this important dialogue!
You have given me a lot to think about!
I was reading that the top reasons for divorce are:
Poor communication
Financial problems
A lack of commitment to the marriage
A dramatic change in priorities
Infidelity
Failed expectations
Unmet needs
Addictions and substance abuse
Physical, sexual or emotional abuse
Lack of conflict resolution skills
Source: "Making Marriage Last"
(www.aaml.org)
When I look over the reasons that the men were giving, I realize that MANY of those issues listed seem to correlate to the dynamics that make divorce more likely.
I think those issues are NOT applicable only to women - men have those issues as well.
The truth is...who really wants to spend their lives with a person with a bunch of unresolved wounds and deeply-rooted issues that impact the marriage dynamics? Everyone has issues but everyone does not bring a boat-load of unresolved issues.
What I am still sorting through is the tendency of many men to correlate emotional baggage with a deficient character. I'd like to ask some guys who visit this blog to comment on this because I rarely hear women making that correlation.
Many of the (professional) women who I walk to in church are frustrated about not receiving more suitors who deem them marriageable when they feel that they should be in demand among men are looking for a wife.
In their frustration, many start promoting the notion that men are intimidated by their success.
When I ask the men, "what about a woman like _______, the men point to OTHER reasons why that sista who feels she's everything a man should want in a wife is NOT highly desirable as a wife.
I started writing it all down!
I know it's easy to say:
"Men are intimidated by my academic pedigree and my career" rather than looking WITHIN and actually fixing and addressing father abandonment issues, abuse issues, anger issues, toxic mindsets, and character issues.
Now, I am beginning to feel that the "men are intimidated by me" line is starting to sound like an excuse to cover up other issues that men ARE picking up on and not talking about with her directly.
I realize that the reason I am not married because it was not a goal for me to be married and because it was not a goal for me to be, I was not actively seeking God's counsel on the men who crossed my path.
As a minister, I think it is beneficial for ministers to be married - if the marriage is enriching and God-ordained. No one makes an appointment to talk to the ministers about how wonderful their lives are - they come to share problems, issues, burdens and devastation.
Celibacy is highly respected, openly encouraged and EXPECTED of all unmarried ministers.
I realize that is not the case in all churches (like the one I used to belong to). Now, if I were openly in a sexual relationship, my judgment and spiritual maturity would be called into question by the bishop of the bishops.
Once I even asked the Pontiff, "what about the guys and all the women flocking around them?!" (referring to the male ministers) and his response was, "I watch THEM too!!"
His position is that if we can not maintain the spiritual discipline of celibacy then we should marry - but he doesn't mean marry anybody or marry for a sex partner. I do understand the "pressure" that some church women might feel about not remaining single for life.
I'll keep listening in on the great dialogue that is unfolding here!
Please feel welcome to continue sharing!
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
Interesting issues, Lisa, and I guess my concern is: why is there this expectation that the person we want to marry or have a relationship with should not have unresolved issues? Why can't it simply be: I love you REGARDLESS of your issues, instead of I love you because you have resolved your issues?
There's no unconditional love that is being revered here. It's just so conditional, and that's why it's hard to find good partners, and that's why-even when you marry-you divorce over any new obstacle that rears its ugly head.
Love is patient, love is kind. I'm not talking about putting up with abuse or anything. No. I'm talking about why two flawed people, who hold positive traits and negative traits, can't come together, like each other, treasure each other's company, fall in love, and make a commitment to be together through thick and thin.
That kind of unconditional love should be able to withstand the struggles of dealing with unresolved issues; why should it be about trying to avoid someone with unresolved issues? And those issues are made manifest across races, ethnicities, genders, and socio-economic classes.
I guess I'm just wondering why our generation is having a hard time of this because, my mom's and my grandma's generation didn't do half of this kind of psychoanalysis on their partners, and some of these marriages lasted a lifetime. They weren't perfect, of course, but that's the point! Life is flawed, as we all are!
Is it because we're such a consumer culture and think that we can shop for the "perfect model" that we think exists in a life partner? I'm not saying I'm not guilty of this kind of thinking, but what if we just remain open to the people who enter our lives and respond to those who give us enough positive vibes (compassion, support, kindness, thoughtfulness, or whatever else turns you on) that we're willing to know them intimately?
Okay, it's time for a man's perspective . :)
I honestly don't want to be married. I know that I posted on my blog that I'm not marriagematerial, but like OG challenged me to look within, I feel that it's me not the women.
But in a way, women have made me feel so undesirable that I think that God wants me to be lonely. My biggest pet peeve is when my female relatives/ friends see or talk about a good-looking guy and compliment him like I'm not even in the room. It makes me feel ugly and inadequate, and definitely destined for loneliness. God would have given me good looks or good genetics, or even some luck in the job market if he wanted me to be married.
Somebody told me that I can't miss something that I've never had. By the same token, I don't want something that I'll never miss. Who wants to be with the SAME person for the rest of their life? Heck, I get bored with myself after 15 minutes.
I feel that women do want a strong man, but that's not me. I AM emotional, I can't defend myself physically (because of my size), and I am DEFINITELY immature in the bedroom. I wouldn't even know where the find "the pot of gold".
God doesn't want me to be married, but don't worry ladies. I'm not gonna be a priest either. I am going to show society that single men don't have to be considered gay. They can choose to play the field and sow their wild oats.
I know that I'm a Christian man, but I might have to fornicate in the near future. Sorry, Minister Lisa. At least I'm being honest. But fornication won't come until my confidence goes up, so you have nothing to worry about.
Welcome Anxious Black Woman!
You have posed an excellent question. I can't wait to hear all the responses to that.
I do not believe that it is wise for a woman OR a man to marry a person with a boat load of unresolved issues because woundedness can add toxic dimensions to a marriage. I can not even count the number of couples seeking counseling because a wife (or husband) admitted sexual abuse AFTER the marriage and that unhealed issue was impacting the marriage to the point of fracturing it. I am certainly NOT saying that this is the case for every couple with deep-seated issues that were not addressed before marriage, but I have heard this over and over.
Some issues SHOULD NOT be brought into the marriage; they should be worked through PRIOR to. (I'll accept others challenging that if they want to.)
You mentioned unconditional love...I don't think that our parents and grandparents stayed marred due to their unconditional love. It sounds romantic but the nitty gritty is that perhaps 40, 50, 60, 70 years ago, divorce was considered so shameful and so taboo that it was not accepted as an option. Some women were afraid to build a life alone with their children and no husband, so they stayed in abusive, exploitative, draining marriages.
I honestly don't think that many people marry with unconditional love in their hearts. Perhaps they believe that they DO but looking at divorce statistics, it can not possibly be true.
Wouldn't it be romantic if it were so?
I am glad you added these points to the discussion! I look forward to hearing all of the responses!
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
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Welcome Zack!
Thank you for stopping by and sharing a man's viewpoint!
There is so much I can say about what you have shared! (smiles)
I encourage you to seek God about His desires for your future. God may not have planned for you to be a husband in your 20s, but you don't know for SURE He hasn't planned it for your 30s or 40s or even 50s. Continue to seek Him, to know His will for your life and to comprehend divine timing.
As I have told you on your blog, you DO have many desirable qualities, Zack. You are hard-working, responsible, sensitive, honest, transperant, family-oriented and communicative. Many women find those qualities endearing. I mentioned this to you on your blog but I don't mind saying it here so that all the ladies can hear that. (smiles)
As for your decision about fornicating...I would encourage you to seek God. Continue to honor God by showing Him that you believe His word. Having sex does not prove manhood. Plenty of men who have sex with men have had sex with women.
If some women think you are gay, it is due to the narrowly-defined and skewed assessments of black masculinity that are so pervasive. I wrote a post on that issue titled, "Black Masculinity and Its Impact on Black Women".
There ARE women who have a narrow definition of manhood. It's not about YOU. I've heard women say that men who get manicures and pedicures are gay...come on!
You mentioned that women want a strong man - and yes - most women DO but keep in mind that ALL women do not define "strong" man in the same way.
I personally don't believe that unemotional men are the strong ones and that emotional men are the weak ones.
You mentioned that hearing other men being complimented makes you feel insecure. No one can MAKE you feel anything...we ALL choose our own emotions. If you hear women mentioning another attractive man, that's okay, and it doesn't take away from your own positive qualities just because they have noticed qualities in another person. You are STILL blessed by God, even if women are not reminding you regularly. Continue to remind yourself that you ARE God's treasure..I know it is true...but you must believe it is so!
Many thanks for your kindness, and boldness, in sharing openly. Feel welcome to contribute as often as you'd like!
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
This conversation is very rich and very interesting. If I could turn back the hands of time I don't think I would get married because I don't think I'm the marrying kind. I enjoy being alone, I value it and it's a very high priority. My husband is the opposite, he hates being alone and he hates quiet (can't imagine how we've managed for 15 years).
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Zack, just wanted to let you know that being alone and being lonely are two different things. I don't think lonliness is a "gift." Maybe "aloneness" is. I'll keep you in my prayers.
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Rev Lisa,
While this is not a challenge to your belief that deep-seated issues should be resolved prior to marriage, I think that life shattering events should not be kept secret from intended spouses. We all have issues to work through and we will always have something to work on. Sometimes the grief, trauma, and pain are so strong that we cannot overcome them enough to blend our lives with someone else. Sometimes we can love a person even when that person is wounded, but sometimes love is not enough to make a relationship last. This can be for various reasons such as one person cannot move past the trauma to trust the other fully or each person's definition and expectation of love and relationships is different. I used to think that "love can conquer all" before I got married, but I now realize that kind of thinking is a bit immature or not fully developed.
Lisa great article and the comments are good too. I am married and have been for over 20 years. I believe as women we want so much in a man that we over look the greatness in a man.
Sometimes I here young woman talking about men as if they were finished product that's not the case we are all work in progress. The one thing about my husband back in the past that I saw and liked was the man would work he is a provider and don't mind doing it.
Some woman don't think men can be shape into that person they are looking for but, over time they can. "Notice" I said SHAPE not made. God has already made him but we all can be shape. Lisa a great post.
Lisa, in bringing up previous generations, I certainly wasn't trying to create some nostalgic and romantic ideal that things were so much easier in the past. In fact, I think our generation is very lucky precisely because we have choices and can leave an abusive and exploitative situation because we as women now have that power and independence to do so.
What I wanted to suggest is that I believe there was less room for nit-pickiness when it came to choosing an ideal partner (in some cultures, this choice is already made for them!), and now, because we have created so many idealizations of what constitutes "Ideal Man" or "Ideal Woman," it's easy to pass over many people who waltz into our lives because they don't fit us quite nicely. Again, I know I've been guilty of this.
But, nowadays, I've been realizing that I can itemize a bunch of different lists for the kinds of qualities I'm looking for in a man, but if I got rid of my lists and dealt honestly with what it is my heart, body, and soul respond to, it still boils down to love and respect. Reciprocated love and respect.
With many black men and women today, I find that we're having a hard time just loving each other. I mean, really loving each other (not that sexual, corporeal love, but divine and spiritual love). Did we ever love each other?
I mean, we MUST have! Think of how, right after slavery, former slaves moved heaven and earth, walking miles and miles in newfound freedom trying to reconnect with their beloved, just so they could freely marry. Think of how such love was necessary to withstand the wholesale attacks brought on by white communities. We can argue that such forces caused alot of our sexual problems in the black community, but we haven't celebrated the extraordinary feat of black men and women coming together and raising families and bonding communities together in the face of widespread racial hatred and discrimination.
That took serious love, and nowadays, when I think about what it is I most want to receive and most want to give, it's that kind of love - call it unconditional, or divine, or spiritual.
Can black men and women (and men and women in general since I'm obviously open to interracial relationships) find that kind of love and be content with that kind of love?
Welcome Hagar's Daughter!
Welcome JJ Brock!
The married ladies weigh in!
Thanks so much for sharing your insights since both of you have been married a long, long time!
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
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Zack,
I just remembered something that I forgot to say earlier...
The pontiff that heads our organization of churches says that: "We have to stop defining loneliness as the absence of people or the absence of relationship! Loneliness is the absence of PURPOSE."
Let us pray on these things.
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
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Welcome Anxious Black Woman!
You are right! I do agree with what you are sharing.
We do have the tendency to have higher standards for a spouse now that we feel that we don't NEED to have one in order to survive economically and now that there is no social stigma for NOT having one.
There are still many "arranged" marriages in our society in the upper socioeconomic classes, particularly among white people. I personally know of one black person whose marriage was formally "arranged". There are people whom I have spoken to who told me that they KNEW who they were "expected" to marry. Certain families in their social circles interact with each other for decades and fervently hope that their children marry WITHIN that social circle that they have come to know.
If my family could choose my husband, I know what they would choose! They would pick a distinguished professor from Oxford who was here as a visiting prof, who speaks three languages, is world-traveled, loves equestrian sports, has dry humor, is deeply loving, is patient with my eccentricity, is an older man who is 10-15 years older and who is a third generation academic. I know how they are! {chuckles}
They would NOT care about his race or physical attributes and would NOT care about his spiritual beliefs. They would NOT care if he had been married once. They would NOT care if he had children but would eliminate him from consideration IF they discovered he had ANY children out of wedlock.
You mentioned about black men and black women loving each other.
Agape love...did it EVER exist among our ancestors? I don't know really...it had to...or else how did we make it after the Middle Passage and not self-destruct?
I will think about this more and listen to other discussion participants.
There IS surely a love void that exists in the black community - an absence of philos love.
Clearly, there is a prevailing belief that storge love has been abandoned in large measure by so many black men.
Perhaps white people would say a love void exists between white men and white women. I think white men are loyal to defending white women moreso that black men are about defending black women. One of my exes - a blond white guy - told me that this is because white men define masculinity in terms of giving protection and providing security. He said that white men do not believe black men define masculinity in that way. I agree with that observation.
Thank you for adding this component to our dialogue because it is very rich, very poignant, very relevant.
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
One of my exes - a blond white guy - told me that this is because white men define masculinity in terms of giving protection and providing security.
This has definitely been my experience with my husband, but it was also my experience with my Nigerian husband. Both men put HEAVY emphasis on providing and protecting. My father also put emphasis on this as his role. He provided well for me and made sure I was protected, guided, and looked out for by his brothers (my uncles) because my father worked in another area. So this is why I talk so much on my blog about that being a man's role. This is all I know, and I'm not complaining.
My sons have been taught that's their role too, and they are therefore preparing themselves to play the "providing and protecting" role when they get married, but judging from some of the comments from bw I encounter on and offline, many of them don't seem to care about that or will say they don't want that. Of course, I meet many bw who will confess that they do want that, if I dig a little deeper, but they don't want to just say that outright. It's like some bw will say they don't care about getting married because they don't want to scare away bm. LOL!
This is my 2nd marriage. I LOVE being married! I enjoyed my first marriage so much until I wanted to marry again. My ex and I are still good friends. When I was evaluating both of these husbands prior to marriage, I had my checklist of criteria. The reality is that both of them far surpassed what was on my list because human beings can be tremendously complex. Also, sometimes you can't tell whether a person meets this or that criteria no matter how much you might dig.
Lastly, in terms of love, my first love was that kind of crazy, insane, quivering, weak-kneed and drooling kind of love. Madness! My second love is passionate and still building. Love changes. It can still be love, but it can change. That to me is also wonderful.
As a young woman in her 20's I can say that marriage is not my priority right now. That wasn't always the case. When I was in my early 20's (I'm 28 now), I wanted a man so badly. I was starved for male companionship. But my standards are high. I have settled a few times and always felt like I was cheating myself. As for your questions...
1. No. I think the fact that we believe there is shortage keeps alot of us from even trying. We pass good black men up allthe time. I have done it, mainly cause they didn't meet my qualifications. But they were still good men who will make good husbands.
2. I think that some of the criricism is petty and the same criticism can be lodged against the men. Alot of them are afraid of commitment.Alot of them are looking for someone to take care of them like their mamas did. I think that there's also the tendency for black men to find any excuse not to date and marry sistas.
3.I don't know about promoting our desirability. I do think that we could show our vulnerability more. Portray ourselves as being more feminine. But essentially I believe that it is the man's job to find his wife. The Bible says he who finds a wife finds a good thing. So I don't promote myself as being anything in particular, just myself. I pit myself on display and whoever approaches me is who approaches me. And if they don't, they don't.
4. Marrying "up" is not that important to me. I don't necessarily care about how much money a man has or where he works. I do require that he take care of himself and that he mnaintains his own place. I don't require that he have a Master's degree venthough I will have one. I would like for him to hae a college degree, but that is not required. I do require that he be intelligent and well-read or at least that he has an interest in educating himself beyond what is required. As for other sistas, Ithink there is a certain segment of the population that cares about marrying up. Most of the college-educated women I know, especially those from middle and upper middle class backgrounds, are concerned about a man's socio-economic status and educational background. I just think in the whole scheme of things, that stuff is superficial.
5. Class background is irrelevant to me, eventhough I realize that class background does affect a person's beliefs and experiencs. But I think that people who are concerned about class are th elite or well-to-do in socety. I think black women are not as concerned about it because many of us are climbing from a lower class to a higher class and therefore have no place to judge someone based on his class background.
6. I think that baggage can hinder a person's ability to form healthy relationships period! But I think it's hard to find someone who is not suffering from some kind of baggage. I don't think that this makes a persons undesirable as far as marriage. It just makes it harder and it might not last that long if a person doesn't work through these issues.
7. I think first and foremost, he has to have a relationship with God, I don't necessarily require that he be a Christian, though I am. I also require that he be intellectually curious. Humor is important as well because I tend to be a serious person until I get around someone who makes me laugh. A man who values family and community. A man who is lovng, has no problem when showing emotion, when appropriate, and puts his foot down every now and then. I don't like men who I can run over. A man who feels an obligation to contribute to the upliftment of black people. And yes, at this point in my life, I require that he be black, though I don't feel that everyone else has to.
8. I think that marraiage preparation steps should be to make sure you're getting married for the right reasons. The only reason that I think a person should consider marrying unless they can't envision life without this person, good and bad. If you want a beautiful wedding, or you think that you're too old and you may not find anyone else, or you wanna have children and don't believe in having children out-of-wedlock, then this is not the time for you to get married, period. I think that the two people have to commit to marriage with the understanding that they are in it for the long hall. No divorce at the first crisis. Though certain things are intolerable.
These are just my thoughts.
Peace, blessings, and solidarity,
Tasha
This is another intense posting. I'm in my 30's and haven't dated that much at all. I felt more confident but lacked a dating skill set when I was younger. I assumed things would fall into place. So...I guess I didn't have a plan. It was important to me that I get out of a stifling household and live on my own. Then I was so concerned for my younger siblings that I'd left behind and trying to make my way in the world alone. I know that I am way to hard on myself but I don't know how to change that. I've had difficulties not just in dating but in my friendships as well. You know I can't figure it out. I met a guy last year that I fell for too easily but he wasn't right for me. So I know that my self-esteem isn't such an issue because I ended it. He told me that he knew there were so many men looking for me but I needed to put myself out there more. He's right but it's hard. I don't feel full of spunk and youthful exuberance though I'm still relatively young. It's all tied together: my career options, money, the place where I live, spirituality. Right now I feel very blocked!
Wow! What a great discussion! I agree alot w/what OG has to say about marriage. I have just begun to carve out my own space in my life and I believe that God is giving me that space an time.
I don't know when or if I will ever get married and I say w/total honesty, marriage has never been a priority for me. Getting right w/myself and the good Lord above is my priority and focus.
Taking care of my mental, emotional, physical and spiritual health is my priority. Like you, I believe that God will send the right person when it is time.
Maybe I'll be 60 and married. Smile. Who knows? I've never thought about marrying "up" or "down" whatever that means.
I understand that when one is in a certain socio-economic and educational tax bracket, there is a seeking out of those who are on the same page.
It is a matter of quality for me; quality of character and spirit that resonates for me. Is this man right w/himself? Does he respect and honor himself, his family and God? What are his beliefs about the world and his place in it?
I am looking for a "complement" not another half because I am whole. Money and socio-economic status does not define character.
They never have and never will. At the end of the day our hearts and character are all we have even when the $$$ are gone.
I am not trying to play naive or Miss Romantic & ignore the fact that there are very valid economic concerns in this world.
I wonder Lisa, who and what are we beyond our degrees and 6 figure salaries and why do these factors impact our ability to love and marry another?
1. Are demographics the real reason so many black women are not married?
I think it really depends on where you live, work or have your major contact with people. If you are working in a non-African American environment then you aren't necessarily meet those kind of men.
2. Is there anything valid in the men's reasons for lack of marriage-suitability of some women?
I think there is a level of healing that has not taken place with black women. We move forward, handle our business, care for others but at the core the only people that really hear us is each other and those who believe in the Spirit. How do you get time to heal when at best you are just trying to be heard?
We have never stood before each other in a national or community forum and said our collective peace about our many levels of pain.
There has been a systemic separation from black men. Part of that is the cultural indoctrination of them seeing images of what appears to them docile women.
Part of it is that some of the fellas also have not done any healing about what it is to be a true authentic man. It is much easier to watch the game and suck a brew.
In TV commercials, certain implementations of religious faiths, music videos, explicit movies seem to displayed that the man is the dominate being. You don't see cultural images of couples mutually supporting each other.
You don't see current TV shows where the black woman is challenging anyone and demonstrating that she can do it with tact and not act the fool.
If a young man does not know or is not exposed to a diversity of women or women's thoughts, why would he want anyone that could not fit that simplistic template he has absorbed?
3. What could black women share that would promote the idea of our desirability and suitability as wives?
I exist as a full human being. I have flaws but I have greater gifts. That sounds good but...
It pains me to think we have to go on a PR campaign with our own menfolk.
Truth be told I am unwilling to sell myself. I am who I am. There are other men on the planet besides black men. I'm not waiting for the anointed chocolate one. I don't care.
Never have. I understand for others they don't want to make that choice and I respect that. I have a life I could share parts of. I'm not turning the whole thing over to another human.
4. How important is marrying "up" to you? To black women in general?
Are you talking socio-economic? Not much. Intellectually? Maybe but no, see there are intellectually gifted people that are emotionally stunted.
Just as there are people who can generate money without a thought but will suck you dry emotionally.
A spiritual balance or connection is far more important. The other stuff can be worked or revisited but if I can't trust the person, if there is such a struggle to communicate then no, later. no amount of material success can compensate for a lack of decency.
Decency meaning he knows that if he is married he can't have sex with other people. That should not have to be explained more than once.
6. Do you believe that emotional and historical baggage that is reflected in expectations and attitudes can become a disqualifying factor in marriage suitability?
You ought to know the history of a person. You need to know how many people can lay claim to his time, finances and emotional attention.
The same is true for the other person. If he is swimming in debt that he has not figured his way out of then you want to step careful before moving forward. If he has a frustrated woman with children trying to extract basic needs he does not have time to date let alone marry. There are times when I need to be alone to work on a project. Can he be alone or does he need constant attention?
Yes, you need to honestly assess the mutual baggage and see if you can that load for a short or permanent duration.
7. What qualities do you feel are important in choosing a husband? (Assumed: shared goals, shared values, strong work ethic, compatibility, intellectual attraction, emotional and mental stability, moral leadership, fiscal maturity and financial acumen, professional excellence)
Can we have fun? Do we appreciate the life we are given? Being open to the possible and impossible. What about personal and private displays of affection?
What is his connection to the universe? I don't care if he is atheist or on the spiritual side but does he have a sense of wonder that hasn't been stamped out of his soul by day to day living?
the list of things that black men tell their ministers, i definately see myself in some of those things(i ie low self-esteem, never seen positive healthy relationship, parents had imbalanced relationship.) and i'm working on my issues.
i feel like BW are always in a lose-lose situation. you have to be strong and take care of yourself because you don't have a man around to help you out, yet that strength is seen as "dominance" and a lack of femininity. i feel like BW can't win for losing.
Hey Lisa, as requested, here are some broad thoughts from a spiritual perspective about your topic re: the difficulty of folks finding love and marriage:
I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favor to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.
~ Ecclesiastes 9:11
I just wanna say how much I enjoy everyones blogs. I'm so glad I stumbled on to this blog site. Rev. Lisa, thank you. and keep up the good work. I am really learning something here.
1. No. There are many great men out here that are marriage material but women tend to overlook them because of the house-car-job standard. I know many great guys around my age (28) who are just getting their career started or are on the verge of getting it started. They are great guys but do not meet that common standard. Another common unwritten rule I encounter is that the man has to have an equal degree or higher. There are many men out here with technical degrees that are smart and making more money than guys with bachelors degrees. I say do not judge a man by Jet Magazine's standards. Take each guy on a case by case basis.
2. Those reasons only apply to a small percentage of women. The truth is that there are many GREAT women out there. The hard part is choosing one.
3. Have an open mind.
4. It is not important to me at all. The black women I know want to marry someone who has a much or greater. It is very important to them.
5. I say socioeconomics is not all that important. It is easy to move up and down in the socioeconomic class. Like i said with question #4... It is important to black women.
6. Emotional baggage is reflected through attitudes in being needy, clingy, or defensive.
7. Qualities I feel are important are spirituality, faithfulness, and intellectual attraction. Mental and emotional stability are a plus.
8. Marriage preparation should include counseling and evaluating whether you are ready to be married.
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