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To the person who decided to lift my words from this blog, I notice that my exact words are in the Washington Post!

Article: "Ties That Align" by Krissah Thompson, 3/18/2009
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Sunday, May 4, 2008

LOST ABSOLUTION: WHITE MEN AND THEIR HORRID HISTORY WITH BLACK WOMEN

I want to blow my trumpet about the process of moving through our history. I wrote a post two weeks ago, "Black Women Who Blew The Trumpet Before We Knew The Sound" and it included letters that were written by slaves. The voices of the slaves resonated deeply with me and I was not able to write about the emotions that washed over me.

As I blow my trumpet this time, I want to focus specifically on the white man's relationship with the black woman. There is still a great deal of simmering rage that many black women have towards white men. I believe that this rage was taught and voluntarily inherited from many generations.

In slavery, the white man was a terrorist of the black race. The white man was a rapist of black women. The white man was a murderer of the spirits of black men. The white man was an oppressor. The white man was a hatemonger of black people. The white man was an emasculator and castrator of black men.

For the most part, black women have never forgiven the white man and have never forgotten. Part of the reason why many black women have never forgiven the white man is because, for the most part, the white man has never attempted to take accountability for his historic and continued devastation of the entire black race.

Most white men whom I have been friends with have remarked about the emotional distance that most black women exhibit towards them. I usually reply, "just remember the history that white men have with black women." My reply is actually overly simplistic. There is a contempt and a hatred that some black women feel towards white men that is hidden beneath a veneer of indifference and detachment.

I believe that the memory of the torrid and horrid history of the white man and the black woman has created a gulf that, for some women, will never be emotionally closed. There are many black women who have elderly female relatives who have memories from childhood of hearing stories about white men who have raped and stolen and deceived. Little black girls in the 1920s, 1930, 1940s, 1950s heard whispering about rapes committed by white men that were "hushed". From slavery until the end of the Jim Crow era, white men declared "open season" on black women. Many white men did not believe that black women were human.

A Khoikhoi daughter, Saartjie Baartman, died at the age of 26, after an illness. She had been placed on display like a zoo attraction, while white men and white women stared at her nearly-naked body.

You remember Sarah.

She had been kidnapped from her home in 1810 and white men believed that she was part human and part ape. From the moment of her kidnap and for many years after her death, they treated her like a beast. At her death, her body was not treated with respect. It was cut in pieces and her sexual organ placed in a jar and put on display. Her remains were brought back to her homeland 187 years after she was kidnapped.

You remember Sarah.

There is a long history of the hatred of white men towards black women that is buried in the hearts of many black women. This history has never been reconciled and it has produced an unshakable amount of bitterness within the minds and the spirits of many black women.

Whenever the discussion of white men and dating arises in a conversation among black women, there is usually a climate of tension that immediately invades the lengthy pause. There is often alarm and denunciation expressed towards any black woman who freely admits to having been romantically involved with white men. Many black women have been taught to dismiss and disregard white men and therefore, there is a lot of surprise expressed whenever a black woman shares any information about an involvement with a white man. Sleeping with "the enemy" is abhorrent to many black women. The black woman who dares to give herself to a white man will often face suspicion, scorn and bewilderment.

When I have been involved with white men, I have not examined the feelings that other black women harbored when seeing a black woman with a white man. I have heard the speculations about why black women choose to be involved with white men. I have heard the erroneous stereotypes about the type of black women that white men typically prefer. I have heard the assumptions made about how white men would lower their standards of respect when being involved with black women. I hear a lot of speculations about what white men are like, usually from black women who have never been romantically involved with them.

For many black women, white men are a symbol of all that has been heaped upon black people in this country and throughout the world. Most white men whom I have befriended or have been involved with romantically are surprised when hearing that they are the symbol of terrorism against black people in the eyes of many black women. For the most part, they never see themselves in a sinister light. Learning how distrusted and disdained they are among black women has been shocking for most white men I have talked to. They usually make comments to me such as, "but the black women in the store are so friendly!" or "but the black women in the office are so friendly!" They can not comprehend being secretly despised.

I have not dismissed the history of white men in this country. I have not overlooked the wounds that still exist within the black race because of the legacy of disenfranchisement, destruction and demoralization that was wrought by the actions of white men. I am not unaware of the pain that many black women carry with the rape histories of their female relatives, who are now elderly women.

A few weeks ago, I was making my twice-a-year trip to the grocery store and a white man stopped me and made a comment to me that reflected a presumption of familiarity and accessibility. I gave him a "how dare you!" facial expression. He was stunned by my response. I suppose, in his unrecognized arrogance, he thought that he could approach a black woman, when and how he wanted to, and foolishly assumed that his presence would be accepted. There are many instances when I've noticed white men suffering from amnesia when approaching a black woman who has not invited him into her space. Unacknowledging a residual mental blockage inherited from the white slave master, many white men feel entitled to enter our space, socially and physically, without invitation. They are surprised when their presumption is rebuffed. I spoke to my friend about this incident later in the evening and she said, "but you are into white boys!" I rolled my eyes and huffed, "No I am NOT into white boys! I have dated white boys but I am not into them!" She looked at me quizzically. I had to explain: "I don't date white men! I have dated men who happened to be white!" She looked at me blankly, failing to see the distinction.

I think the distinction is important. I think the distinction reflects my movement through history and my decision that I would not make every man with white skin the symbol of the actions of the race that he didn't choose to belong to. I blow my trumpet today - not advocating for reconciliation with white men and not advocating for forgiveness - to tell my sistas that it is time to advance through history. Advancing through history does not mean forgetting our history. It means that we have to give a different place to our history. I notice that there are many black women who wear the history of black people around their necks that looks as though it is choking and suffocating them. They are immobilized by their attachment to history. So profound has the domination of history been within their hearts that it has produced emotional baggage and mental confinement.

Diana Ferrus wrote "A Poem for Saartjie Baartman".

"I've come to take you home -
home, remember the veld?
the lush green grass beneath the big oak trees
the air is cool there and the sun does not burn.
I have made your bed at the foot of the hill,
your blankets are covered in buchu and mint,
the proteas stand in yellow and white
and the water in the stream chuckle sing-songs
as it hobbles along over little stones.

I have come to wretch you away -
away from the poking eyes
of the man-made monster
who lives in the dark
with his clutches of imperialism
who dissects your body bit by bit
who likens your soul to that of Satan
and declares himself the ultimate god!

I have come to soothe your heavy heart
I offer my bosom to your weary soul
I will cover your face with the palms of my hands
I will run my lips over lines in your neck
I will feast my eyes on the beauty of you
and I will sing for you
for I have come to bring you peace.

I have come to take you home
where the ancient mountains shout your name.
I have made your bed at the foot of the hill,
your blankets are covered in buchu and mint,
the proteas stand in yellow and white -
I have come to take you home
where I will sing for you
for you have brought me peace."


How does the one so tormented deliver peace in death?

In order for Diana Ferrus to write this letter to Saarjtie, she had to move through the pain of Saarjtie's torment and the lingering hatred that existed after Saarjtie's death. She remembered the history but was not crippled by the history. Because she was able to move through the tunnel of all of Saarjtie's muffled screams and uncried tears, she was able to bring reconciliation to the torment that was experienced by her countrywoman, Saartjie.

How does resentment become a badge of honor? Can the inheritance of black rage ever become a hidden treasure with untold worth?

How does the road of the women from our bloodline call out to us and taint our hearts with rage?

Listen to the sound of the howls of rage that emanate from the grave and clutch our hearts. How will our hearts wrest free from hatred and rage?

Is there any valor in carrying unreconciled pain, handed like a baton from one generation to the next?

There is a tunnel through our history with white men that only a few black women have been able to walk through. How is it that some black women can look at a white man and not see a symbol staring back at them of destruction and dehumanization? How is it?

I believe that I know. Perhaps these women, like I, have stared into the hole of the tunnel and have dared to walk inside. Perhaps these black women, like I, have made it through the passage and have come out at the other end of the tunnel as free women - acknowledging the history of our torment as black women at the hands of white men, wading through dirt from graves that buried the secrets from our female ancestors and brushing dried blood from our faces that blows through the wind through the narrow, hollow passage.

The journey through the tunnel is without any light and without any protection from the horrors of memories that whisper from our grandmother's grandmother's grandmother.

We move through the bowels of pain from ancestors who can not speak to us but who weep from beneath the dark carpet that is covering the dust that was once human flesh.

We have come out from the other side of the tunnel.

26 COMMENTS:

Khadija said...

Lisa,

As with everything, this issue is loaded down with baggage. A little back story about my college exploits:

I briefly dated a Mexican guy & a White grad student while I was an undergrad. But I wasn't really emotionally available for either of them. It was more of a "mad at & getting back at Negroes" thing. What had happened was that, after months of him pursuing me, I relented and agreed to go to a Latin Student Association [LSA] party with "Jorge."

What I discovered upon arrival was that, lo & behold, the party was filled with Negro males chasing after Mexican girls. Some of whom had just dropped their Black girlfriends off at home after leaving the Black Student Union party earlier that night. Needless to say, the Negroes were extremely unhappy to see me there. It seems that Black girls hadn't been attending the LSA parties. So they had been able to chase Mexican girls & [in some cases] cheat on their Black girlfriends in relative privacy.

I've had a big mouth & a loud voice for a very long time. So of course, I spread the word to all of my girlfriends about what I had seen. Many were angry & dismayed like I was. I mentioned to one of Jorge's guy friends that I knew a lot of other girls who would be willing to attend LSA parties if they were invited. They caught the hint & suddenly Jorge's guy friends were showing up at the LSA parties with Black dates.

Needless to say, many Negroes with double standards were angry with me for 'causing' this mini-exodus of previously 'captive audience' Black girls. One Black guy I knew angrily accused me of only hooking up my cute friends with these non-Black guys. *LOL!*

During this same period, I briefly went out with the White grad student who lived in my building. Let's call him "Pete." Ultimately, I stopped seeing him because I felt guilty about it. Visions of my mistreated female ancestors were dancing through my head. And I stopped seeing Jorge (in part) because I wanted to be "loyal" to my people, unlike the Black guys who were prowling the LSA parties.

That was part of the reason why I stopped seeing Pete. I think another part of the issue was that Pete was a WASP. In the years since then, I haven't had the same sorts of knee-jerk negative reactions to the ethnic White men who have approached me. I guess because Greek-Americans & others don't quite fit into the slave narrative, and don't trigger thoughts of the plantation.

Peace, blessings & solidarity.

LISA VAZQUEZ said...

Welcome Khadija!

You noticed that there is another deep excavation underway!

In this piece, I wanted to point out the two places of the heart - CARRYING OUR HISTORY WITH US (not forgotting those who came before and what they endured) and CARRYING THE BAGGAGE of our history (and being stagnant in our recesses of thought because of it).

I wanted to describe that process of moving THROUGH the history. I knew that very, very few sistas had done it and that when they saw it, they would "know" that they too had move through the passage and were no longer dealing with people as symbols but as individuals.

You are right. The issue IS loaded.

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

Anxious Black Woman said...

Perhaps those women have stared into the hole of the tunnel and have dared to walk inside. Perhaps these black women have made it through the passage and have come out at the other end of the tunnel as free women - acknowledging the history of our torment as black women at the hands of white men, wading through dirt from graves that buried the secrets from our female ancestors and brushing dried blood from our faces that blows through the wind through the narrow, hollow passage.

This is beautifully written and a necessary post. Of course, I wish my decisions when dating a white guy were this deep. They weren't. I just happened to like the guy (maybe because I think he's hot or charming). You know, the initial things that get you interested in wanting to date somebody. :)

Overtime, the relationship gets deeper and then, this "history" might be explored in which he has to reconcile with why "race" is so important to me and why it needs to be important to him too if we are to emerge as a bonafide couple.

Of course, we should also acknowledge that alot of black women's hangups are completely based on history. I'm glad the few white guys I've dated or befriended were really sweet. But I also have a friend during our undergrad years who was almost raped by a white guy who called her a "jungle bunny" while imprisoning her in his apartment and knew of another black girl who was gang-raped by a fraternity, whose "rules" included sleeping with a black woman as part of their rite of passage. Those fools got away with it because the victim did not want this reported and didn't want her white boyfriend to know about it. (It's why I believe there's a certain kernel of truth to the sexual assault charges in the Duke case because this stuff happens all the time.)

So, I'm like you in saying I don't date or am into white boys. I only date men who happen to be white. As a group, they are oppressive because they've got much too much power over us - legally, socially, culturally, economically, politically - for us to ever really "let go of history."

And to me, it's usually the men who have to go through that "tunnel" and come out whole, because I've already taken that trip. IRs are alot of hard work if we want to forge a serious relationship - as opposed to some casual dating or one-night stand.

I sure hope your next post will also look at white women because that's a whole other group many black women have serious tensions with, and the history between us is just as damaging, oppressive, and not dealt with. In fact, believe it or not, most of my racist encounters are with white women more than with white men nowadays, so what does that mean?

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Greetings, ladies.

I just want to add in some perspectives here.

Of course, all black female-white male relationships in this country are going to be colored by historical racial dynamics. It just can't be helped.

When I mentioned this briefly in a previous response, I was thinking about it in this sense.

Although I share the historical knowledge of the American racial dynamic, it is not my personal experience and those of my ancestors.

My husband is French-Canadian. His family moved to the U.S. a few years prior to my parents' move. His family lived in North America at least going back to the 1700s, but this had no history whatsoever with African Americans and slavery. So in my mind, he did not represent the oppressor of slavery.

What has mattered is how we relate to each other: the respect, care and affection which is very important to us.

I was struck, Khadija, by the notion of loyalty you spoke of. It seems that black women all too often hold themselves to a standard of loyalty that many black men refuse to uphold.

Yet, in adhering to it as a matter of pride and holding up the race are we harming ourselves? It as though we can overcompensate for the men who don't "hold it down for the race," and who only "hold it down for themselves."

So we can refuse to look out for our own best interests, because we guilt-trip ourselves, or let the "brothers" guilt-trip us. But they feel no guilt whatsoever for demanding we adhere to standards they don't even keep for themselves.

Once again, with a greater discussion of how men and women in the group experience gender, this sort of thing would not be happening.

Shoddy, shoddy, shoddy!

But I'm glad you called the "brothers" out on their sexism.

LISA VAZQUEZ said...

Welcome Anxious Black Woman!

I want to point out that when i reviewed what I wrote, I saw that I made an error. I changed the text in that sentence you mentioned to include "like I" and I felt that was very important because I didn't want to write as though I had not gone through the tunnel.

I know that I have. I needed to make it clear that I am writing from experience. I wanted to describe what it was like inside there.

I think that many black women see a sista with a white man, married to a white man and wonder, "how COULD she?" but you see, they do not realize that some have traveled through the tunnel that they have only stared in the mouth of.

Thanks for saying this:
"So, I'm like you in saying I don't date or am into white boys. I only date men who happen to be white."

Sistas who do not date white men usually fail to see the distinction. I am adamant about making the distinction!

You said:
"I sure hope your next post will also look at white women because that's a whole other group many black women have serious tensions with, and the history between us is just as damaging, oppressive, and not dealt with."

How did you know? It's pretty scary that you are understanding the methods to my madness so quickly! Yes, this blog DOES have a very planned method of bringing out issues on the table.

I haven't tossed out issues haphazardly. There is a well-thought out progression that I am seeking.

I believe that these issues are hard for many sistas to discuss openly. I feel they are NECESSARY for us to discuss. I wanted the discussion in my house to move a bit deeper so we touch places that maybe we don't WANT to. I believe we stand much to gain from that. I really do.

You said:
"And to me, it's usually the men who have to go through that "tunnel" and come out whole, because I've already taken that trip."

Will our men take the trip? I wonder. I would have to bring them into this and ask them.

Many of our sistas have not been - and maybe it's because they didn't realize they SHOULD...

You said:
"Of course, we should also acknowledge that alot of black women's hangups are completely based on history."

If only ALL could be this honest!
Thank you so much.

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

___________________________________

Welcome Pioneer Valley Woman!

Thanks for being so open!

I was hoping that you would participate in this dialogue because you bring a perspective into this that very few can bring - since you are in a very solid marriage with a white man and have moved from dating to a lifetime partnership.

You said:
"Although I share the historical knowledge of the American racial dynamic, it is not my personal experience and those of my ancestors."

That is an important statement.

I think in the discussion I was having about bigotry, I was making this statement to Khadija - that I was speaking from my personal experience right HERE and my ancestors personal experience right HERE and not of an experience elsewhere. I have ancestors who were slaves in the South. I have, in fact, stood on the land where they toiled. My people who were slaves here shed blood here and have roots here. This is why I didn't allow any discussion of "you're not from here" or "you're in another cateogory".

Yesterday, in the other discussion we were having, I mentioned Obama's children may receive a "special label" from blacks who want to create categories for them since Barack is from Hawaii. Just because their dad is from Hawaii does not mean they are not part of the black experience here. I am quite sure Michelle will teach them to respond to that sort of misrepresentation of their identity as black girls in this country and misrepresentation of their place in the history of black people here.

I know how I respond. I solidly reject it.

As black women, we DO have to solidly reject this type of subjugation within the black race - because only white supremacy will gain from it.

I realize that all my sistas here do not and will not agree with this, however. So we agree to disagree.

I see white supremacy being advanced when this "categorization of black people" is this being perpetuated. I see clearly where it leads. It doesn't lead to black solidarity - it furthers black disunity.

You said:
"It seems that black women all too often hold themselves to a standard of loyalty that many black men refuse to uphold."

I believe that this practice that we see so often...the adamant "badge-wearing of loyalty to black men" when we (black women) surely have not RECEIVED it is a reflection of the heavy baggage and the deep bondage.

To answer your question...YES...it is harmful...VERY harmful.

Being committed to a LOYALTY that has not been given is harmful... it is disempowering... it is too close to mimicking the slaves who were told they were FREE and who said, "we'll stay with you, Massa!"

They prided themselves on the loyalty they had to those who were not loyal to them and who were not committed to their empowerment.

I really do see it in the same vein...and it is distressing to see how many of our sistas wear the badge...Maybe they have other reasons for doing so. I am willing to listen to those reasons in order to gain more understanding.

You said:
"[we]...let the "brothers" guilt-trip us."

Will you give some examples of how this is still happening? How do we (collectively) stop this from continuing?

Thanks for your insights!

I can not even express how appreciative I am for you, and for ALL of the sistas who come to this table with such a mature and intelligent approach to examining these deeply-rooted issues.

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

Anxious Black Woman said...

Of course, we should also acknowledge that alot of black women's hangups are completely based on history.

Sorry about that: it should read "alot of black women's hangups are NOT completely based on history."

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Rev. Lisa:

Thanks for being so open!

I was hoping that you would participate in this dialogue because you bring a perspective into this that very few can bring - since you are in a very solid marriage with a white man and have moved from dating to a lifetime partnership.

My reply:

You're welcome!

Rev. Lisa: You said:
"[we]...let the "brothers" guilt-trip us."

Will you give some examples of how this is still happening? How do we (collectively) stop this from continuing?

My reply:

It is still happening when we let ourselves become silent in addressing issues that affect us as women because we are afraid of what the brothers will think, that they will think we are bashing them, that they are disloyal, that the race issues matter more, so we need to put our gender questions aside.

Do we even talk about sexism with the brothers? Or do we let them get away with telling us that any discussion of gender wrong? Do we let them silence us?

But I see black women moving away from that with Shecodes' efforts through BlackWomenVote. Lots of women are waking up to what has been the historical realities of gender in the community. Silencing us won't happen in the future as long as we are vigilant, and we educate others.

AnxiousBlackWoman has made some important points of knowing what we are dealing with.

I am a serious critical race feminist, and the husband knew it from early on. We had serious discussions about race, gender, sexism, racism.

The historical aspects of black women's relationships with white men, as per slavery, are gone, but that doesn't mean that the dynamics can not exist today, in whatever fashion they may. So I have a heightened awareness and vigilance.

I went into dating him with eyes wide open. I wanted to know all about him, his relationships with women, his attitudes towards women, for example, his sisters and mom.

I wanted to know whether he harbored any ideas about what he "thought" black women were like.

So I was not going to be naive. I had had white male friends and casual dates. I took my time in getting to know them. Those who seemed to be too much about the "exoticism" got iced real quick.

I wanted to know about his character--the usual things women think about when dating someone, but most importantly, whether he harbored any racist and sexist sentiments.

Now, it would have been much more difficult for me to date my husband if say his ancestors had owned plantations in the English-speaking Caribbean!

SheCodes said...

"[we]...let the "brothers" guilt-trip us."

Lisa, you asked for a few examples:

I only speak for myself and my own experiences for this. Additionally I will add that most of the white men I have dated were in NYC.

I do not recall even one encounter in which a black woman a criticized me for dating a white man. If I wasn't being studiously ingnored by sisters, then I got conspiratorial winks and 'behind his back' high fives from the sisters. There is a lot of anger at black men in the higher educated, black groups where I hung out.

A few friends seemed relieved that I was 'into' white men (????), because they assumed that I would not be competition for the good black men in our circle (they were wrong).

HOWEVER... the men were a different story. I had several 'good brothers' bring the subject up and try to appeal to my ego by saying stuff like, "white men take the cream of the crop and it's not fair" -- mind you, none of these men had ever asked me out on a real date or offered me anything other than friendship with hope for sex at some point.

Two of them tried to 'set me up' with their black friends, to get me away from Julian, my ex. Many times the problem became MINE: 'why Arlene is intimidating/too high maintenance/to tall/too chaste'/too... everything.

I also received OPEN HOSTILITY in Harlem, to the point where I feared a physical altercation several times. I was with an Irishman who was 6 foot 7, so they did not dare to glare at him. I, alone, got the 'hate stares'... and I believe that a few of these dudes would have loved to physically hurt me.

The worst were the "brothers" who had white girlfriends. I simply couldn't understand this. However, after reading Khadija's story, some of it is now making sense.

Lucky for me, my circle of friends now include black men who are very supportive of black women, and do not exert this kind of pressure.

I think that black men are wising up on this issue. At least partially. Two months ago, a friend of mine said... "Okay, if you must date white, at least let him be an ITALIAN".... lol


Btw, I am currently scheming to use every feminine wile to get a certain black man in NYC. (evil laugh)

I did, howe

Khadija said...

Pioneer Valley Woman,

You know the drill: "Loyalty" is very similar to religious rules of conduct---only women are held to these [sometimes self-imposed] standards! *LOL!*

The other thing I should mention is that my notions of "loyalty" were also formed partly as a result of my disgust with a couple of my cousins. This brother & sister grew up in a then-mostly White suburb. They set their feet firmly on the "we love & worship Whiteness" path early on. Their "we love White folks" attitude was coupled with a constant denigration of almost everything & everybody Black. This attitude got really entrenched when we were all high-school age.

This particular female cousin was always very angry that she didn't turn out near-White looking like her mother. She was very unhappy about being what is called "brown-skinned." And she wasn't too keen on me, because (1) I'm what is called "light-skinned," and (2) I've never felt particularly excited or priviledged about being around non-Blacks. She moved to Europe again a few years ago---to a 2nd country that has a miniscule Black population.

Peace, blessings & solidarity.

MacDaddy said...

I understand at some level the historical reasons for the anger of black women against white men. But what I don't understand is where the anger goes. How is it manifested? Feeling angry, feeling rage, do black women take his out on each other? On black men? Their kids?

SjP said...

Lisa - much obliged for the invitation to visit. Your blog and posts are informative, provocative, and thought provoking. I'll be back...and often. And please remember, the door is always open to you at Sojourner's Place. SjP

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Shecodes:

The worst were the "brothers" who had white girlfriends. I simply couldn't understand this. However, after reading Khadija's story, some of it is now making sense.

My reply:

It seems to be a guy thing. Guys see the women of their group as their "property," so they don't want their rivals to walk of with their stuff!

Thus, they get pissed off!

But one can think about it on another level too.

As an analogy, some government policies tend to dislike monopolies greatly. Why? Monopolists can set their own prices, overcharge and provide shoddy service, because they will always have their customers. Bring in competition, and they have to work at providing good produces and services, but at competitive prices.

Black men have a monopoly on black women's interest. As such, they have always been certain that regardless of what, they would always have it. But with men of other groups competing for our attention, they can't take our interest for granted.

Once again, they get pissed off.

Macdaddy, asking about rage.

My response:

It might not be a global anger, but it seems to be triggered among some black women based upon the situation.

It is triggered in their interactions with white men.

It is triggered when they think of how they are portrayed in society (images developed and conveyed historically by white men).

It is triggered when they think about how other women are portrayed, ie., white women, and their interactions with them.

It is triggered when black men are with white women, because the men appear to be buying the white man's standard of beauty, which always excluded them.

MacDaddy said...

You've identified and expounded on the just rage many black women have toward white men. But i'm concerned about the effect of such rage on the health of black women, their families, their partners. Maybe you've already posted on this and maybe my antennae is up too high on this (I was a family violence counselor dealing with victims and perpetrators), but I'm thinking that this rage must take its toil and manifest itself in ways that are not always very healthy. If so, how can black men, or partners, and families be supportive?

LISA VAZQUEZ said...

Welcome SheCodes!

Thank you for sharing!

I had never even paid any attention to the reactions of black men when I was with a white man. Brothas who know me would consider it to be commonplace for me to be with men from ANY and ALL cultures (because they know that I am world-traveled and have been since childhood). They would not expect me to make life choices that reflect a narrow view of men of other cultures and countries. That’s the only reason I could think of that they wouldn’t say anything.

It’s interesting you mentioned the guy you are presently …um… interested in! {snicker} Best wishes on that “mission”! {wink, wink}

Thanks again for coming by!

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
___________________________________

Welcome Pioneer Valley Woman!

Thank you for explaining that! It’s important to put that out there.

If I were dating a white man and found out that his ancestors had owned black slaves, I would definitely investigate what his perspectives were and take a lot of time to examine his conditioning – but I would not instantly dismiss or discard his friendship or the relationship based on the knowledge of what people in his family had done that he didn’t even know! I would do some deep excavation through his interior though! There is a documentary that will air on PBS about a white woman who was researching her family and discovered that her family owned the DeWolf plantation which was the family who owned the most black slaves in this entire country. She was horrified and she sent letters to 200 of her family members asking them to return to the place where the DeWolf family had owned land and resolve their horrid history together. Nine people of the 200 answered her request and she began the documentary. I am interested in seeing it!

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

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Welcome Khadija!

Thanks for adding to this discussion!

I am still sorting through my own loyalty-to-the-black man perspectives!

This is apparent from my posts, “The Cost of Pushing A Black Man To The Throne” and also “My Black Brother, Are You With Me?” and “The Little Sister Love Affair With Big Brother”.

I work in a construct that is dominated by black men - and for the most part the black clergy organizations and denominations in this country are controlled by men. I can not think of ONE major black denomination that is controlled by black women.

I am still sorting through what my feelings are about loyalty to black men. I am still deciding what I want my loyalty to be - but I am definitely not making any blanket assumptions about ALL black men.

I want to work through that process out in the open with my sistas so I will probably write more about it in future months.

Some sistas have asked in email, “Why are you mentioning your loyalty to the brothas?! Why do we care about the brothas?! They don’t care about US!” and ignoring the generalizations that I hear about ALL brothas, I answer those sistas by saying:
“I mention my loyalty to black men because it is part of who I am. I was not taught to be angry at black men, my experiences have not given me reason to harbor animosity towards black men and I am concerned about/disappointed in but not angry at black men."

On this blog, I discuss issues that I feel are important to discuss with my sistas and I think black men are one of the important issues to speak about.

One brotha told me in email that he’s glad I am not bashing the brothas on my blog! *LOL* I didn’t realize that there WERE brotha-bashing blogs out there! I told him this blog doesn’t bash sistas OR brothas … or white people…or any groups…but I will attempt to facilitate honest dialogue in a way that maintains a constructive tone.

Let’s keep sharing and thinking this through! I think we are having rich discussions here and you have been a contributor to that so I appreciate how deeply you think about these issues.

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

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Welcome MacDaddy!

Thank you for stopping by and sharing your insights. It’s always helpful to hear the perspective of a brotha on some of these issues.

It is important that you brought up the issue of unresolved anger.

If you hop over to the comments section under my post about The Self-Inflicted Wound of Bigotry”, it will be clear to you just HOW some black women deal with their pent-anger and hostility.

They deal with it by directing it towards other black women by “inventing” a justification for their release of anger and hostility.

Commonly, the “invested” justification in the blogosphere is usually: I am angry at you because your experiences do not match mine and you are saying something that does not match how I think and therefore I am justifying my hostility to myself and making my emotions about what YOU said.

The truth of the matter is that they were angry and hostile about MANY things, for MANY reasons before they ever turned on their computer! Many sistas just don’t admit that to other people or to themselves.

It’s easier to tell themselves “I’m angry right now because so-and-so said xyz which I don’t agree with.” This is a lie so many will tell themselves to avoid digging THROUGH their own interior admitting to ALL that has resulted in anger.

As a preacher, I know that people have all sorts of reactions to what they hear. Some INVENT positions that you never communicated, others ADD to positions that you've stated other things that you never added, others simply tune out selectively and take ONE minor point and turn THAT into the central point.

I encounter these dynamics even in the blogosphere. We all are probably guilty of doing these things unconsciously to some degree.

Still, I encounter these tactics MORE with women who have a lot of unaddressed anger however. They LOOK for ways to dismiss the message so that they don't have to confront the truth that the message requires them to engage with.

I challenge some women on this blog who come to my table for discussions with anger by asking some questions: Are you UPSET when learning that there is not ONE black experience? Are you are UPSET when learning that all black women do not agree with and own your perspectives? Is THAT is upsetting to you? I call that out quickly - and I do that because I want us to admit to where we are. I want to admit to MYSELF where I am too!

I also think that many black women find that it is extremely common to encounter other black women who have unresolved anger. Anything that becomes commonplace starts to become condoned.

I think this is unhealthy.

My observation is that many black women seem to empathize with the anger and hostility that they see in other black women. The empathy can sometimes allow the release of that anger and hostility in ways that is totally inappropriate.

I wrote in my comments section in my post “The Self-Inflicted Wound of Bigotry” that I would not tolerate ANY sista entering my house spewing hostility at me or at anyone.

I said that in RESPONSE to a sista mentioning to me that by expressing a certain viewpoint that I would “face hostility”. My response was – but NO I WON’T because I won’t tolerate it. I think that black women need to draw that line in the sand more often.

Sometimes, if a sista is confronted about her toxic emotions then she is sometimes accused of be unsupportive of black women! Therefore, acceptance of dysfunctional anger is perpetuated.

Perhaps that also exists in some circles with some brothas and you are welcome to speak on that.

Perhaps some of my sistas contribute to each other’s unresolved anger and hostility by refusing to constructively and directly confront it when we see it. Sometimes we don't confront in OTHER women what we have not addressed within ourselves.

I will think about this some more.

I wrote a post, “Pardon Me Will You Knock The Chip Off Of Your Shoulder?” and it was just the beginning of the discussions that we will have here about anger and bitterness. What I found was that it was a topic many would not discuss. Some would have preferred that I use this platform to JUSTIFY why black women are angry. I'll leave that to other blogs to do.

I would imagine that you encounter many black women in your work. What are your suggestions about HOW we (black women and black men) should deal with the anger that has been inherited?

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

MacDaddy said...

Thanks, Sistah. And thanks for visiting me at daddyBstrong.blogspot.com. I got you lined; and me and my friends will be stopping by again.

Khadija said...

Macdaddy,

You asked where Black women's rage going? It's going where it's safest to go. Black women vent on other Black women & most of all, we vent on Black children.

Pecking orders transmit aggression downward (from the stronger to the more vulnerable), not up.

Peace, blessings & solidarity.

Hagar's Daughter said...

Macdaddy,
If I may add to Khadija's answer, the rage is also being turned inward: obesity, drug & alcohol abuse, the people we choose as a partners/lovers/spouses.

Khadija said...

Hagar's Daughter,

You are quite correct. In addition to the other self-inflicted wounds you mentioned, I overlooked the fact that for a lot of Black women, food = prozac.

Peace, blessings & solidarity.

rutherfordl said...

Lisa,
I would call myself an insulated brotha. I grew up in a black upper middle class family on Long Island and had very little exposure to racism. Compounding this was a physical disability (that was the first thing people "looked at") and my fare skin which threw many folks off my racial identity. I say this only to put myself in context for you and your readers.

I was drawn to your post by a demonstrative conservative who read your post and quoted it in his comment to my blog. As I read your post, I was at first worried that you are living in a time long ago, much the same time that Reverend Jeremiah Wright seems to be living in. I was relieved to see that you are advocating that black women (and I think men too) move through history. Awareness of the past is a good thing. Residing there permanently is not.

The fellow who pointed me to your blog, had a severe reaction to my post on racism. I invite you and your readership to sample my thoughts at http://rutherfordl.wordpress.com/2008/05/16/why-are-you-a-racist

I am a firm believer that the presence of Barack Obama on the scene gives this country a much needed opportunity to openly discuss racism and make more progress toward changing hearts and minds.

Regards,
Rutherford Lawson

LISA VAZQUEZ said...

Welcome MacDaddy!

Thanks so much for your gracious support! You are listed on this blog in the section under "Those Who Are Passionate About Writing"! (smiles)

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
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Welcome Hagar's Daughter!
Welcome Khadija!

You have both made some very valid points!

Thanks so much for contributing to this rich dialogue!

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

_________________________________

Welcome Rutherford!

Thank you for stopping by and sharing!

I certainly promote the idea of moving THROUGH history while still being cognizant of it. I will continue to write about HOW to move through history because I have learned that not many people know how.

I don't believe that Dr. Wright is stuck in a time capsule. His congregation has more Gen-Xers than Boomers.

I think that people need to read more of his writings rather than allowing the white media to interpret his ideologies.

I would recommend that anyone who is truly interested in understanding his ideologies check out his writings as well as 10-20 sermons. Dr. Wright is an elderly man (to those in my age group) but his examination of race issues is still very relevant.

I will be happy to visit your blog and digest your writings.

A few white male readers have let me know that they feel that this blog promotes "racist views". I find that assessment rather amusing but not nearly as amusing as their preposterous belief that their viewpoints matter deeply to me.

Thank you again for your kindness in sharing!

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

rutherfordl said...

Lisa,
Your point about Dr. Wright is well taken. In fact, in my blog I discuss how the media's love of sound bites distorted the Reverend's message.

I think in his speech on race, Obama attempted to help the white community understand his pastor by saying that Dr. Wright cannot ignore black history when he discusses where we are today. Perhaps then as an olive branch to whites, he then went further to say that Dr. Wright has not given enough credit to the progress society has made.

In any case, Barack's attempt to defend (and explain) his pastor ultimately failed, in no small part due to Reverend Wright's more "street" display at the Press Club. The Reverend Wright of Bill Moyers' Journal goes down much easier in the white community than the Rev Wright of the Press Club Q&A session.

Regards,
Rutherford

LISA VAZQUEZ said...

Welcome Rutherford!

I noticed a blogger (a narrow-minded white Southerner) who was in a dialogue at your site...this nuisance has attempted to speak disparagingly of my blog and to misrepresent my viewpoints on other blogs since his comments here were deleted. He's even attempted to hurl insults when he sees my name in a dialogue. Black bloggers know "his type". Most don't even bother to give him the attention he craves. He was brushed off like a fly when he swarmed around here. *LOL*

I agree with you that Dr. Wright caused more negative media attention after his conduct at NPC.

I was dismayed that Obama made the mistake of allowing white factions to force him to renounce a man he had known for 20 years. His campaign should have named the pastors of all of the presidential candidates and exposed the ideologies of those clergymen. The Obama campaign did not use that strategy and Obama wound up in the quagmire.

I believe that white America wanted to see a contrite and apologetic Dr. Wright. They didn't see that. To add to the outrage of encountering an "uppidity" and unrepentant Dr. Wright, they watched him being curt and flip in his responses to the questions.

They actually thought he'd treat their inquiry similarly to a congressional hearing! *LOL* Dr. Wright knew that they had intentionally slandered him and therefore, he wasn't going to give them the courtesy of being engaged in any serious response when he had nothing to defend.

Dr. Wright basically mocked them and left the stage. It did not help Obama at all.

Dr. Wright has not lost any credibility among black clerics. His church is still prominent. He's as well-regarded as he always was.

Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts!

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

femmeautonome said...

I fear at this point after all the other intelligent and thoughtful comments, my remarks might be redundant.

But I wanted to make a few comments. I am engaged to a white French-canadian and like PioneerValley, I was very clear about not wanting to date someone who thought I was "exotic." One thing I love about my bf is that he sees me and not my race. In fact, he often wonders why I bring up race as often as I do. Someone asked how the rage black women feel is exhibited. Well, I can attest that I feel the need to bring up the portrayal of black women ALL the time to my bf. And I do feel angry about how we are perceived and thought about by others. Sometimes its an issue of contention b/c he does not always see the big deal. Reading your post made me wonder if I myself have come through the tunnel whole and free.


As black women, we DO have to solidly reject this type of subjugation within the black race - because only white supremacy will gain from it.
.

I agree. I am a first generation American and even though sometimes I have felt as an outsider among blacks in the US, I still consider our experience to be similar.
Divisiveness among blacks occurs alot outside the US, too.

LISA VAZQUEZ said...

Welcome Femmeautonome!

Thank you for sharing in this crucial discussion!

Black women must deal with the history with white men because it directly impacts how we deal with white patriarchal constructs and how we deal with white supremacist conditioning.

Many sistas do not realize we MUST come through the tunnel. They are still a the mouth of that tunnel and not realizing that remaining right there engenders captivity to historical baggage.

I have dated a few white men and they do not understand why race is so prominent in our experiences - but that's a reflection of the conditioning of white privilege. They aren't forced to confront their whiteness as they move through life day to day.

There are many instances where I notice that blacks who are not born here are viewed differently by blacks who are. Those blacks who receive citizenship after coming to America are not really seen as being truly American to most Americans. They are viewed as "paper" Americans...people who have a piece of paper to represent their citizenship but who aren't really like us. That type of discriminatory thinking still is quite prevalent. I want to write about it but I need to think more deeply about it so I can address that subject matter with sensitivity and objectivity.

Thank you so much for your contributions to this conversation!

Please feel welcome to share as often as you'd like!

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

Standtall said...

Thank God that I have learnt through history. I believe in co-exsitence but I will never allow anyone to take me for a ride be it black men or white men!!!

When I watched some of slave vidoes and saw what they made black women go through, I wept in my heart and asked what could I have done if I were in their shoes. They made mistresses out of our foremothers. Too sad. But despite it all we gained, we now co-own their countries.

Moonchild said...

I just wonna say just found this website and I am loving it. khadija and Femme, I really enjoy reading your post.