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Article: "Ties That Align" by Krissah Thompson, 3/18/2009
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Sunday, May 18, 2008

EXAMINING THE HURDLES FOR BLACK FEMINISTS AND WHITE FEMINISTS

I have written a few posts on race issues in the past few weeks.

Black Women Blow The Trumpet invited a guest writer, Ginny, to speak with black women about issues that impact gender solidarity. We had an honest and engaging dialogue and I encourage you to read "Ginny Speaks To The Sistas On Gender Solidarity". Ginny will be happy to continue answering questions so please feel welcome to continue to post comments for that discussion after reading her post.

As I have toured the black blogosphere, I have read a lot of discussion about the chasm between white feminists and black feminists. This link, MY ECDYSIS, was from Tami's blog, titled "WHAT TAMI SAID". The history of black feminism is summarized by this post: FEMINISM'S BLACK ORIGINS and in this article, "BUT SOME OF US ARE BRAVE: A HISTORY OF BLACK FEMINISM IN THE UNITED STATES".

I have also read discussions about why black feminism has been incorrectly defined as womanism by many white feminists. The difference between womanism and black feminism is described on this blog: FEMINISM-GENDER.BLOGSPOT.COM.

I am not a feminist. I am not a womanist.

I have never been either one. I have no plans to ever become either one.


Why am I writing about the hurdles that impede gender solidarity between black feminists and white feminists?

I believe that as we examine those dynamics, we will arrive at some new solutions about how to engage with non-black allies. We will begin to learn from our past mistakes and will be able to identify more beneficial strategies for alliance building by identifying better approaches to long-term tactical maneuvering.

The women who come to these discussions have a desire to identify new solutions and strategies. Part of our process of identifying new solutions will be to fully understand the mistakes that we can learn from. This level of introspection allows us to use wisdom in an entirely new dimension for our future exploits as a collective.

We have had several discussions on this blog about the need for black women to have allies. We haven't thoroughly discussed HOW to engage those allies. There is a vetting process for allies that I believe we must implement more effectively. What must this vetting process consist of? How has the current vetting process failed?

Whenever I have said that black women MUST begin to understand how to correctly enlist non-black allies, I have heard many counter-claims about the dangers of engaging non-black allies. It seems that the common "excuse" is that our attempts to engage with non-black allies have failed.

Consider this question in the context of our relationships with allies: If I enter into a relationship without defined criteria for who can enter into the relationship with me, and without any expectations that I have communicated to the group that I have entered into a relationship with and without any conditions for continuing each stage of the relationship, then whose fault is it if my needs are not a priority and remain unfulfilled?

As I read the conversations on the blogs of many black feminists, I hear a recurring complaint that white feminists do not fully understand the struggle of black women. I need to make this very clear to all of my sistas so we can stop whining about it once and for all: NO ONE understands the struggle of black women and NO ONE ever will. Can we agree that today shall be the last and final reality check regarding the fanciful notion that non-black women will ever fully understand our struggles?

Entering the mind and heart of black women can NOT become a criteria for our allies. It is an outlandish and unrealistic expectation. No one needs to understand my mind and my heart to contribute to the objectives that I have placed on the table. Do us all a favor and please leave your heart outside of the room when we come to the negotiating table as a collective to leverage the influence of our non-black allies. Black feminists embraced feminism as an identity and this provided leverage for their allies. Once any movement becomes part of one's identity, it is more painful to leave it. Read the blogs of black women who are no longer aligned with the feminist movement and you will hear the pain and outrage.

Black women, we need to have some requirements for our allies. Our allies must:
(1) understand and embrace the objectives we have on the table
(2) understand and embrace the vision for how those objectives can be accomplished
(3) understand the resources that they are being expected to leverage in order for those objectives to be met for our mutual benefit
(4) have a clear understanding of how "mutual benefit" is being defined by us
(5) understand how the contributions of our allies will be defined and measured
(6) examine how milestones will be identified and measured


No one has to become an honorary black woman in order to advance the priorities that matter to black women. I would encourage all of my sistas to examine why it seems so necessary for someone to understand your personhood in order for you to extend trust. There are different levels of trust involved in alliance-building. In many conversations that I have participated in, it seems that many black women adopt an "all-or-nothing" mentality when it comes to extending trust. Trust becomes an emotional issue when it should be a strategic issue. This "all-or-nothing" mentality regarding trust is detrimental to the tactical maneuvers of alliance-building.

In this link, a white feminist blogger speaks about the strains between black and white feminists: TINYCATPANTS.WORDPRESS.COM. There are so many online discussions that address the assumption of white feminists that sexism is equal to racism. Many black women have observed that white feminists, as a collective, have not studied the dimensions of white privilege that they benefit from. For this reason, white feminism has attempted to place white women's experiences of sexism in the same tier as sexism experienced by women of color.

From what I have read, it seems that most white feminists do not thoroughly examine the white supremacist patriarchal constructs that black women must confront regularly and therefore, they can not articulate how those constructs pose different barriers for women of color. Ask any white feminist who believes she is socially-conscious to describe the different levels of white supremacist structure that are functioning within society and to explain how those structures have generationally subjugated women of color. Silence.

It seems clear that most white feminists do not consider the implications of the reality that black women in white America will find themselves in. White women have one America to navigate through - white America. Most white people I have encountered have no real concept of the two Americas that exist for black people in this country. White patriarchy has not had the same result on white women and black women. As I read discussions among white feminists concerning women of color, many do not think deeply about the fact that black women:
(a) do not have white privilege
(b) regularly confront class prejudice within their race
(c) continue to face degrees of hueism within their race
(d) face social exclusion within their race, if lesbian
(e) endure racism in different dimensions from non-blacks (Asians, whites, other immigrant groups)
(f) battle sexism in and out of their race, and
(g) face black misogyny from men and women in their race.

White lesbians often believe that their plight as lesbians in the white race is somehow equal to the plight of black lesbians in the black race. It is ludicrous to assume that all dynamics in each race would be similar. Many white people assume that the way white people relate to other whites is the way black people relate to other blacks. It is an outrageous assumption that has gotten a great deal of traction.

I mention this because it is important that black women understand the misperceptions that non-black allies could potentially bring into the alliance. It is important that we (black women) identify methods to work through and around those misperceptions. We must also re-examine the misperceptions that we bring to the equation when we are engaging with non-black allies. It is puzzling to me why black women would ever assume that white women who were practicing gender solidarity among other white women had worked through their race issues and had addressed the mindset of white privilege. Black feminists didn't expect to encounter overt and covert racism within the white feminist movement? There are many socially-conscious people who still operate with a host of "isms".

It is unrealistic to expect non-black allies to operate with black consciousness when most black people don't even function with black consciousness. Most black people are still exhibiting thinking that was fostered in slavery, are still justifying the choices that reflect white supremacist logic and are still unable to conquer racial inferiority. Entering the negotiation with non-black allies with an expectation that they must exhibit black-consciousness is outlandish and unrealistic.

When we look at the dialogue between white feminists and black feminists and attempt to examine how that alliance became fractured, there's blame to place on both sides of the fence. This is where I would like to focus our dialogue. When reviewing our history with non-black allies, it is clear that we need to re-visit and re-examine our patterns.

The reason why black women often leave the table empty-handed when building alliances with non-blacks is NOT because they are at the table with non-blacks. If we pretend that THIS has been the area of fault - the race of the ally - then we are refusing to truly engage in self-introspection and self-accountability. It is ludicrous (and dangerous) to cling to a mentality that our only "true" allies will be within our own race. Black women, we are going to categorically eliminate 86% of the population in this country as potential allies? How does that mentality benefit our progress?

Let us consider why we can not accept that 14% of the population is the only segment in which we can identify our "true" allies. Black women are now floored when they see black adolescents raping and torturing adults. How did these boys learn to harbor hatred towards black women? In the 2007 Juneteenth rape at Dunbar Village Housing Project in West Palm Beach, Florida, the police never apprehended all ten suspects. The U.S. government could find Hussein in a hole but the West Palm Beach Police Department can not find black teens who have probably never left the zip code? Let us not forget that the police department did not initiate a manhunt for the black rapists who forced a woman to have sex with her own son - and the police department is led by a black woman. If ten black teens had raped the white wife of a millionaire white mogul in their own home in the affluent section of West Palm Beach, all ten black suspects would have been apprehended within days, under the direction of this same police chief.

How realistic is the mentality that our "true" allies are only those within our race when black preschoolers (presumably those who have spent their first four years of life around black people) are still choosing the white doll? Preschoolers who are favoring the white doll are manifesting a dynamic that exists widely in the black community. I continually challenge the notion that only black people are the "true" allies of black women.

Let us look at this relationship between the black feminists and the white feminists as a case study. Let us examine its beginning. Let us examine its demise. Let us walk through the maze and put solutions and lessons on the table that we can use as stepping stones.

What can black women learn from the mistakes made by black feminists in the alliances they attempted to foster with white feminists that can benefit us as we seek to identify new methods of building new alliances with non-blacks?

32 COMMENTS:

Khadija said...

Lisa,

After further reflection, it occurs to me that there IS an example of one Black group that demonstrated the successful use of tactical alliances with outsiders: The Nation of Islam under Elijah Muhammad.

I remembered the multinational business deals (such as importing fish from South America for their restaurants, etc.) that the NOI engaged in under his leadership. Also, in order to own the trucking fleet, farms, & other real estate interests, they must have had business dealings with Whites & others. They were able to have tactical alliances with outsiders without losing their focus on advancing their own interests. Also without being taken advantage of by these outsiders.

*Note* I am NOT a member, & I have never been a member, of the NOI. There are reasons for that [which I won't go into]. I also have major issues with Elijah Muhammad (especially his abuse & exploitation of Black women).

However, I am a believer in intellectual honesty & giving credit where credit is due. Even giving proper credit to people I don't like. Hmmm. . . If the NOI was able to do this 'back in the day,' it feels more plausible for us to be able to correctly do this now. I need to think about all of this more. . . and what safeguards they had in place to ensure that this worked right for them.

Peace, blessings & solidarity.

LISA VAZQUEZ said...

Welcome Khadija!

You have offered a great example!

As you can see, I am still advancing this premise of examining the methods of engaging non-black allies!

I am embracing what you have said in prior discussions about protecting black interests. I have always agreed with you on that point!

Where I think you and I differ on that point (and please correct me if I have misread your view) is that I do not promote the notion that the WAY to protect our black interests is by adopting exclusion and embracing suspicion.

I agree with you that Nation of Islam has chosen its non-black allies after a lengthy vetting process and has probably experienced few instances of being exploited.

Nation of Islam also does not put their "hearts" on the table when engaging with non-black allies (or even with black allies). They have not made it a requirement that their non-black allies wholly embrace their philosophies.

I am not an advocate of the Nation of Islam but I do not find that this black muslim organization has been any MORE exploitative of black women than the black church has been!

The same subjugation of black women in the Nation of Islam has historically been evident in the black church construct.

Black women have to be careful when we assume that ONE PERSON'S actions reflects the doctrine of an organization or that the culture that exists in an organization reflects the doctrine of an organization. That assumption does not always hold true.

I can have major issues with a leader and still examine the doctrine closely enough to see where the application of the teaching DIFFERS from the doctrine itself. This is widely evident in the Christian community.

For example, millions of people THINK that Christianity is defined based on whatever application has been touted wherever they are attending church when their pastor may not even have a correct understanding of what Christianity is. Most people I talk to who profess to have been Christians all of their lives can not explain the tenets of Christianity or identify heretical teaching on "Christian" television. (I digress... *LOL*)

We (black women) can NOT make an assumption that simply because a person is part of an organization, that he/she embraces the application of the teaching that is presented OR that he/she wholly embraces the leader's positions. I don't have the same theology as the leader of the organization I am part of.

I would NOT automatically rule out someone as a potential ally simply because I disagreed with the leader's positions in an organization that the person was part of.

Thanks so much for stopping by. I am sure this will be an insightful discussion as we are joined by more of our sistas!

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

richard said...

Lisa!

great topic! and after reading your post, i am floored that you still don't identify as a black feminist or womanist. :)

i wholeheartedly agree that we shouldn't wait or expect for non-black women to understand the black woman experience. i'm a black man, and the black female experience is close to me through friends and family, but it i do not possess embodied wisdom of the black female experience. and i know i never will. i myself am wary of people who attempt to speak for me when they don't have my experience.

i believe that allies need to act because they know that none of us are free until all of us are free. I also believe that an ally should ask how they can be of assistance, and not assume to know what people need. i wrote some "prosetry" on this subject on my blog, i call it "upstream".

And thank you for linking my blog to your site! i will be adding you to my blogroll today as well, i am feelin' what you are bringin. bless up!

peace,
richard
http://fem-men-ist.blogspot.com

Khadija said...

Lisa,

Oh. . . you've gotten my position more or less right regarding protecting Black interests {Smile} . . . Suspicion & exclusion are the safest postures for gullible fools to adopt. And African-Americans are collectively (& historically) an extremely foolish people. Right now, we're the world's biggest suckers.

It IS possible for us to grow up & collectively make better arrangements. And I have seen individual Black folks (myself included, otherwise I wouldn't have gotten through law school) cut deals that worked for them.

I'm not convinced that collectively we've grown up enough to do this. On the other hand, maybe all we need is a cadre of 'grown-ups' among us to make the moves you're discussing. I don't know. I'll sit back & ponder all of this as others join the conversation.

Peace, blessings & solidarity.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Hmm...What can black women learn? Not to be emotionally invested is one I would agree too. Not being idealistic in believing that white women share black women's sisterhood at some fundamental people. Not forgetting that in politics, people are going to be people, so 'ish will happen--how will you forestall or prevent?

LISA VAZQUEZ said...

Welcome Richard!

Thank you for stopping by my neighborhood!

Your contributions to this dialogue are much appreciated!

I will visit your blog and check out your "prosetry"!

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

_______________________________

Welcome Khadija!

Thank you for adding more to the pot!

You said:
"It IS possible for us to grow up & collectively make better arrangements."

I agree!

I am communicating that message quite strongly in several posts on this blog.

You said:
"...maybe all we need is a cadre of 'grown-ups' among us to make the moves you're discussing."

Now you understand the point of these discussions that I am attempting to facilitate here? Whew. I am glad someone gets it! (smiles)

You have clearly captured what my belief has been. Our history reveals to us that when there is a cadre of forward-thinking black folks, THAT cadre can usher in a movement that the others can latch on to. I want this blog to become a think-tank for that cadre.

There is a room called "The Sit Room" in Washington, D.C. where the highest-ranking power brokers strategize about issues concerning this nation that impact the world. (It's also called "The Situation Room".)

This blog will serve as "The Sit Room" for black women who are part of the cadre for the new movement.

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

SheCodes said...

Wonderful post. The way to engage in the ally selection process is to be very clear about what one's own objectives are, and to come into the relationship in a position of strength.

For example, at BWV, we have a promulgated Black Women's Agenda which is the first tool of analysis of relationship building. "Family" or "warriors" are those people who are committed to to a lifetime/generational strategy of bringing the entire agenda to pass.

"Allies" are people who will not harm our agenda items, and are willing to work with us for part of the agenda for a period of time, usually for their own reasons.

I believe the best way to engage in an ally relationship with social justice organizations is to join as a solidified bloc of black women who are very clear about what we want from them. Join with demands - we want X amounts of leadership seats at the table, and we want to see sub-goal Y accomplished by this certain date.

I completely agree with "taking your heart off of the table", and I will go further by saying that we take the concept of 'loyalty' to places where it should never have gone. It is not wise to be loyal to people who are harming your agenda. Politically speaking, we should think in terms of leverage and not in terms of loyalty.

Finally, in terms of 'heart'. I do not need white women, black women, white men or anyone else to 'understand' or 'feel my pain'. I want them to help me or get the @#$% out of my way.

However, there is a place for HEART, and that is in terms of LEADERSHIP. I will never accept leadership from anyone who does not have a heart for me or my people.

Leaders are not the same thing as allies. If you can not TRUST your leader, then you should not follow them, pure and simple... because you, as a follower, will never be as privy to all the things that they are doing.

I do not need my pastor, social justice leader, etc to understand what it's like to be a black woman, but if they can watch our subjugation and oppression and not bat an eye or feel a twinge of empathy, then I will not accept their plans for my life.

TLW said...

I hope you don't mind the opinion of an outsider/Black man.

After reading many of your posts I believe that I am starting to re-think the whole engaging with outsiders. You see, much of my reluctance to engage in this practice came from reading the history of when Blacks in the past have done this and how they allowed outsiders to dictate how they were going to move forward with their agenda. I've read on how leaders of the Civil Rights Movement in order to appease their White allies would undermine many in their own organizations, and their own agendas.

I think I am now open to this because I also think about the many times in history that two sides who don't necessarily see eye to eye have partnered up. For example, the British and the French had been arch nemesis for centuries but teamed up when they both had a common enemy in Germany even though they were ideologically on polar ends of the stick.

You don't necessarily have to agree with them to partner up with someone to advance your own agenda, just as long as you don't allow outsiders to dicatate to you how you are going to move forward with your own agenda and I think I am finally starting to get that.

LISA VAZQUEZ said...

Welcome SheCodes!

Thanks for stopping by!

You said:
"I will go further by saying that we take the concept of 'loyalty' to places where it should never have gone."

I know you have discussed this point in other online discussions we have had, but since some people who are reading this comment section for this post may not have heard your insights about this, please elaborate on that point for this discussion.

It's great you are on a blog tour this week! I appreciate being on your list of stops to make! I know many hosts will be thrilled to see your contributions to the conversations at their blogs.

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

_________________________________

Welcome TLW!

Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us!

This blog DOES focus on augmenting the voices of black women but our black brothas are not labeled "outsiders" here.

We want to work together with our brothas for our collective advancement as a people.

We (black women) realize that in order for us to operate in black solidarity, we MUST redefine the relationship with our brothas so that our brothas know what our expectations are in black solidarity.

We must give our brothas a clearer understanding of why we now require reciprocity in loyalty in order to build new allies with them on the political front.

We must address the fractures that exist between the sistas and brothas and then we must move forward as a united front to dismantle white supremacist constructs that perpetuate the subjugation of people of color.

Feel free to share your insights on how we (sistas and brothas) can begin to work towards that objective together.

As you can tell from my posts, this is not a black-man-bashing blog. Not at all. This blog attracts many serious, thoughtful, forward-thinking sistas.

Thanks for coming by my neighborhood!

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

wisdomteachesme said...

hey lisa,
hope all is well with you.

just a question, if you do not consider yourself a feminist nor a womanist....
honestly i stopped reading when i read that statement.
why bring all this up and what can you tell those of us that call ourselves femenist or womanist?

why should your thoughts/words be listened to?
to me it's like having a non black woman tell me what it means to be a black woman--or a straight woman tell me what it's like to be gay woman.
are you giving a veiw from the outside?
i'm just curious because you have made that statement more than once.

In peace, love and grace
in Her name

wisdomteachesme said...

hey lisa, one other thing that i have not read about on any of the blogs.
is anyone supporting and working to create womens study programs on every hbcu?
because to my knowledge there are maybe 5 maybe 6 in existance on hbuc's. and 2 of them are at the only hbuc's for women.
that is something that is greatly needed on campuses.

that is one place in which young women of color and all women will learn so much esp. from one group of women-what the women of color from the
'60's-'70's wrote about and worked for.

which is a lot of what i see a few speaking on. a rehash of what has been set forth--

also what about joining the nat council of negro women to work with a well established org.

and working with the nat womans studies assoc. which now has a black woman heading it.
(go sister bev)

it seems that most of what i read is what they have been doing or trying to do for their years of exsitance. audre lorde spoke about-wrote about and worked for the same things that many are posting about now.

and if we do not take care of the environment--there will be no need to join all black women-blue women-green women together. there will be no life-not as we know it.

just thinking outloud...

peace, love and grace
Always Holding Her hand....the hand of Truth.

LISA VAZQUEZ said...

Welcome WisdomTeachesMe!

Thanks for stopping by!

Since you said that you chose to stop reading at the beginning of this post, then I can only arrive at the conclusion that you are not interested in absorbing what this post is actually about. If you had a desire to UNDERSTAND this post, you would have read it in its entirety.

Sometimes, our sistas (and I am sure I have been guilty of it) do NOT remove their filters and those filters cause them to start making assumptions.

As for WHO listens to me...this is an open blog for anyone to visit. I surely don't feel any need to qualify or justify my personhood in order to give an opinion. The reader/listener can take it or leave it -- as you have said, you chose the later.

I find that those who contribute most effectively in group dialogue are those who examine their filters when entering dialogue and demonstrate a willingness to hear what others have to say BEFORE jumping to conclusions and placing assumptions on the table that others are expected to address....and allow me to clarify I am NOT saying that you have done this...but I am just making an observation of what I have encountered in the blogosphere and in other settings.

I want to encourage ALL who visit this blog
to read the post, and ask questions AFTER careful reflection of what has been communicated.

Thanks again for taking time to stop by my neighborhood!

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

faith said...

1st time visitor but I've read your comments on a few other blogs. This was a great post. I need to marinate on it for a bit and find the direction very helpful.

wisdomteachesme said...

greetings lisa,

let me first clarify that i scanned the post,,but no i did not read it. and i have gone back for a closer look.
i had a good understanding of what was there. i merely asked you a question because i wondered why you feel that way.
for me it has nothing to do with filters. you made the statement and did not elaborate. it was said with as much passion as you have for all your writings. i merely wanted to know why you do not consider yourself one or the other.
not that because if you don't, that there is something you need to justify. far from that.

I understand many woman of all colors that do not consider themselves a feminist nor a womanist--that does not mean they are not 'women centered activists'. i know there are many reasons some women have for not wanting to be put into either of those 2 catagories.

but doing activism work that 'normally' comes under the title of feminism or womanism is how people will look at it and title people--for some people when they can catagorize others it makes them less nervous.

re-teaching the public how to treat women of all colors is a 4 alarm need.
i understand fully what you speak on in your posts-and your views are full of helpful detail.

for me i guess it is more complicated as far as A Womens Centered Awareness in all things goes.
It is more inclusive than just white women and black women. but your focus is your vision-it's yours.

i'm sure you know the native american hisory in which certian First Nation tribes traditionally saw from a womens centered view and acted from that sight. the women held leadership positions within the tribe.

As long as the work gets done by a unified and harmonious path- it does not matter to me what the group that does it is called.
they can name it= "The group that got the work done" .
i just wanted to clarify that i fully understand what you speak on. and that i just wanted to know.

LISA VAZQUEZ said...

Welcome Faith!

I appreciate that you have stopped by!

Feel free to comment on any posts on the blog that interest you because NO conversation is ever closed and we revisit discussions all the time when more people add new solutions and new perspectives.

I never want to stop the flow of solutions coming to the table.

Usually, I'll add "REVISITED" to the post title so that everyone knows that we are returning to a topic that was presented earlier.

If you have any questions on something that you'd like to ask me one-to-one, you are welcome to send me a note. My email address is in the sidebar.

If there is a topic that has NOT BEEN presented on this blog that you believe should be addressed, feel free to click on the BLUE box on the sidebar and leave your suggestion!

Feel welcome to come back and share as often as you'd like!

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!

Lisa
_________________________________

Welcome WisdomTeachesMe!

Thanks for your additional comments, and thanks for the clarification you have offered!

In this specific post, I wasn't exploring how women of color are treated. Thanks for mentioning that important issue.

You said:
"for some people when they can catagorize others it makes them less nervous."

You are correct that I stated upfront that I was not a feminist or womanist in this post. Some people think this is a feminist blog or a womanist blog - it isn't.

The reason I didn't feel I needed to explain WHY I wasn't a "feminist" or a "womanist" is because, in my mind, THOSE labels are not so deeply important that one must explain not choosing one.

You said:
"It is more inclusive than just white women and black women. but your focus is your vision-it's yours."

Gender solidarity issues are broader than the dynamics between black women and white women. That is not the sole focus for examination on this blog. I've stated that already. Two weeks ago, I mentioned in a post that Black Women Blow The Trumpet would be inviting Asian and Latino guest writers for the next segment of the Gender Solidarity Series. This was to inform the readers that there WOULD BE other angles to explore and more segments for that particular series of discussions. Suggestions are welcomed!

Thanks again for your interest in this post and for your insight/input!

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

SheCodes said...

I have no beef with feminists, nor do I have a problem with womanists. I don't identify myself as either, and am not offended at all if people believe that I am either.

I don't really understand the pressing need to self-identify as a feminist or as a womanist. What doors will labeling ourselves as such open?

TO DEFINE OURSELVES is to limit ourselves. The word 'Definition' comes from the latin 'definire' which means 'to put an end to'. To establish a boundary. TO CONTAIN ONESELF.

A definition is more about saying what you are NOT, and declaring where you can not go, than it is about declaring what you are.

I avoid the 'titling' debate because it has caused too many sisters who agree on mostly everything else to get sidetracked into angry recriminations followed by endless navel gazing and hang-wringing.

I could understand if this recurring argument was about PRINCIPLES that we disagreed about, but TITLES? Come on!

Let's call ourselves whatever we wish, but let our actions and our words speak for who and what we truly are.

Black women have always been round pegs trying to fit into square holes -- strike that -- we are spherical, multi-dimensional, supernatural beings trying to squeeze into a flat, finite, one dimensional plane set by others; and our very nature will not allow that endeavor to succeed.

Can't we acknowledge that we are greater than all of these definitions, and that we are too broad, too complex, and too phenomenal to be defined by 'a one size fits all' label?

SheCodes said...

God said "I AM" when asked to self define. Black women should follow suit.

Ana said...

SheCodes: I agree with you 100%.


Lisa: I have been reading and learning a lot from your wonderful blog. I will post comments much later.Thanks.

Cordiales Saludos,
Ana.

Khadija said...

Hmmm...interesting. This topic came up on Pioneer Valley Woman's blog. As I stated there, I don't call myself a feminist or womanist; but I also don't run from these labels.

Here's why: Misogynists [of all sorts] use some women's fear of these labels to shut down woman-affirming work. It's similar to the way right-wing lunatics have made "liberal" a dirty word that weak progressives run from. It's also similar to formerly Black folks looking to redefine themselves as anything other than Black. All of these "don't label me as ______________" postures give off the same weak vibe.

I beg to differ with Shecodes. Labels & self-definitions can also affirm identity. Why else was it so important to reject "Colored" and "Negro" and label ourselves as "Black" or as "African-American." Isn't this process part of self-determination?

I'm reminded of how Israelis & their supporters for many decades defined & portrayed the Palestinian people as simply a mass of "Arabs" without any particular nationality. I don't recall hearing the word "Palestinian" in the news until the 1st intifada in 1987. It helped to disempower the Palestinian narrative by lumping them under some non-specific, vague, & mass label [as generalized "Arabs"].

Another example is the leverage that Black radio stations lost when they allowed themselves to be redefined as "urban contemporary." It's hard to complain about advertising discrimination when you've redefined yourself out of a protected class & into some vague, neutral category. At its core, that's what's wrong with Black folks peddling this "I'm just a human being; don't label me" stuff.

My point is that specific self-definitions can have power.

I can also understand why self-proclaimed feminists & womanists might be annoyed with those who are fleeing these titles: It often smacks of cowardice & ingratitude. Similar to the cowardice of Democratic candidates running from the "liberal" label. Ingratitude in terms of keeping at arms' length the feminist & womanist activists who made our modern aspirations & lifestyles possible.

Let's get real: Just a few short decades ago, the odds are that: Lisa wouldn't be an ordained minister, I wouldn't be an attorney, and Shecodes wouldn't be an engineer [I think that what she is---I could be wrong.]. We would have been limited to the narrow fields open to educated Black women: teachers & nurses. Period. [Not that there's anything wrong with these professions. The problem was the lack of options that funneled my mother & aunts into these fields.]

The church, the professions, and American society didn't just decide one morning to open up a wider range of possibilities for women's lives. That came as a result of the hard work done by the feminists & womanists that came before us. I'm not going to distance myself from them by shunning their label, especially while reaping the benefits of their struggle.

Peace, blessings & solidarity.

Miriam said...

I too agree w/Shecodes.

LISA VAZQUEZ said...

Welcome SheCodes!

I absolutely agree with what you have shared!

Thank you for adding that perspective!

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

_______________________________

Welcome Pioneer Valley Woman!

Thanks for adding to this dialogue and apologies that I didn't mention my appreciation sooner!

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

_________________________________

Welcome Ana!

Thanks so much for joining in the dialogue! There are hundreds of visits to this site each week and I always wonder why sistas aren't commenting!

It's always great to receive other perspectives at this table!

Please feel free to return and share as often as you'd like!

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

_________________________________

Welcome Miriam!

It's great that you have stopped by!

Thanks for chiming in!

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
_______________________________

Welcome Khadija!

Thanks so much for coming by! I realize that your commentary is in heavy demand at many blogs so I am happy when you place me on your national tour! (smiles)

Even if you don't have the time to write posts for a blog, you should at least consider a weekly talk show. You have a lot to say.

Thanks for adding a different perspective. I am sure that I sound like a broken record by now but I will repeat what I have said to you in prior discussions.

Simply because OTHER people shunned a label for xyz reason DOES NOT mean that a blanket statement can be made for every person who shuns a label that they are doing so for the same reason or the same motive as someone else. Same actions do not equal same reasons. Same actions do not equal same thinking. We can not draw those blanket conclusions.

If there were people who shunned a label in the past out of cowardice, this does not prove or indicate that all others are operating in cowardice for doing so.

I don't run from a "womanist" or "feminst" label - I simply don't use those labels.
As the great online prognostigator, Arlene Fenton, once quipped, "...it adds nothing to my existence."

I concur.

You said:
"I can also understand why self-proclaimed feminists & womanists might be annoyed with those who are fleeing these titles: It often smacks of cowardice & ingratitude."

There are plenty who benefit from MY advocacy also - but I don't have a category I've put myself in in order to claim credit for results of my advocacy. There are MILLIONS of women who are engaged in advocacy that has benefitted other women who were not adopting the labels of "feminist" or "womanist". Having a label to adopt means getting the credit for the work of that movement - whether you did ANYTHING tangibly to advance it or not.

When someone claims to be "feminist" or "womanist", it does not automatically mean that the person has DONE ANYTHING significant for the movement at all.

I agree that self-definitions CAN have power but I agree with SheCodes that labels issued by others can subjugate. As black people, we need to CONTROL our own self-definition.

You said:
"All of these "don't label me as ______________" postures give off the same weak vibe."

I believe asserting what YOU ARE not is an expression of strength and self-possession.

I keep repeating to black people who want to define other blacks that THEY ONLY control their own self-definition. They don't dictate ANYONE else's self-definition. They usually don't like to hear that they don't have a right to put ANYONE in categories. I even said that to you in a conversation two weeks ago.

Putting YOURSELF in a category is one thing - creating categories to dole out to others is something else. I am constantly reviewing my words so that I am more aware when I am doing this.

This is why I was not one of the black people ridiculing Tiger Woods for refusing to ignore his own mother's entire family in his self-definition. He has brown skin but this does NOT mean that he should elevate one parent's lineage over another parent's lineage - simply because other people in society do so or simply because it's accepted with black people to do so.

I decide on my own self-definition. Society may call me whatever they choose to but society will not tell me what to call myself. This is something that not all black people can grasp because whatever the white man called them is how they referred to themselves.

These are the same black people who want to enforce the "one drop rule" in 2008 that the slave master taught them 400 years ago. It reflects a slave mentality of attempting to force OTHER black people to accept the self-definition that was handed to them by white supremacists.

I see NOTHING wrong with black people who research their ancestry and acknowledge their understanding of their FULL heritage and it doesn't matter how brown their skin tone is. The degree of brown in their skin tone should have no bearing on a person's acceptance ofand recognition of ALL parts of their ancestry. Communicating to others a knowledge of the FULL SCOPE of one's ancestry is not denouncing any portion of it.

You may say, "well some black people say that they have Indian ancestry to claim that they are NOT black". Some people who LOOK black (from the African diaspora) are actually Native-American. I have a sibling who has been mistaken for being white and who refuses to allow her hair to grow long because it looks straighter as it gets longer. My point is that black people who look at skin tone and then decide on someone's dominant ancestry category are being extremely ignorant.

You mentioned that black radio stations lost their leverage by allowing themselves to be called 'urban' but the major black radio stations are owned by white companies so white companies decided what the black stations would call themselves. It was never in the power of black people to decide - unless they were in ownership.

I correct people who call me "Reverend" because that title perpetuates this culture in the black church construct that members of the black clergy are a different "class" (albeit a superior category) of Christian than other Christians! It is NOT of God to do so. Colleagues often tell me "the title 'Reverend' lets everyone know your status!" Please. And that's PRECISELY why I don't even care about using that title. I don't care who knows my rank. There are ministry colleagues who refer to me by title in casual one-to-one conversation! We aren't even in a professional setting and they are caught up with titles. The organization leader loves titles and formality. I believe that it's important for the black clergy to present themselves as EQUALS among the people of God....that is not widely accepted among my peers however. They like the stature of their titles - but pretend not to.

You said:
I'm not going to distance myself from them by shunning their label..."
I do not believe that NOT adopting the label "womanist" or "feminist" is the same as DISTANCING oneself from either group.

This is a rich dialogue that we are having and I am glad that I am hearing all of these viewpoints!

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

Khadija said...

Lisa,

It's not that my commentary is in such demand, it's that I have a big mouth! *Chuckling*

About Tiger Woods & his ilk: I don't want anyone who doesn't want to be Black included in the Black category. [We don't need any more internal enemies---let people who want to be outsiders stay outside.]

I'm just sick of these "don't call me Black" individuals sucking up Black resources. Resources such as Black scholarships, Black affirmative action slots, etc. They need to develop "biracial," "triracial," & "Cablanasian" scholarships, etc. and LEAVE BLACK PEOPLE'S HARD-EARNED STUFF ALONE!! [/shouted/] *LOL!*

Peace, blessings & solidarity.

tasha212 said...

Lisa,

As usual, I am late to the conversation. I think the biggest mistake that we make as black people is to come to the table without knowing who we are. We don't study our history (especially not our ancient history that occured thousands of years before the founding of America). If you don't have a good understanding of your history and philosophy, I think that you are more susceptible to taking on the definitions and experiences of others. I think that that is what happened with black feminists. Feminism has at its origin a eurocentric ideal. I don't understand the disappointment and delusion of many black women who accept the feminist label and expect white women to automatically accept them and their issues without reservation. When they first came to the table, they should've already had a plan that outlined their concerns. I understand that this is where the womanist movement came from but I still find it troubling because womanism is still based on feminist principles, but with a black twist.

I think another problem that I see with our people is that we often come to the table empty-handed and leave the table in that same state. We don't make any demands from the beginning so we end up empty handed . I'm starting to feel that some of us are just happy that we were included. We continuously give of our services, dollars, and votes without demanding anything in return. And we are upset when we get played. This stems from IMO black folks being taught to think on an emotional level when everybody else is taught to think on a level of self-interest and business. So what happens as a result is that we make business decisions with our hearts instead of with our heads.

As far as labels are concerned, I think they are sometimes useful and sometimes useless. I think ultimately it is up to each individual to either accept or reject them. I do acknowledge that there is a trend amongst black folk to embrace every aspect of their ancestry. While a lot of this is in an effort to be less black, some of it is genuine cureosity. I reject the feminist label because I fell that it was essentially a white middle clss female movement that was devoid of my experiences. If sistas didn't believe that before, I think white feminists have made this quite clear during this presidential election. I don't claim womanism because it is still based on a feminist construct- with a black twist. No one has to accept labels that they don't want to accept. It doesn't make them any less genuine in their efforts to organize or uplift women.

BTW, I sent you a personal e-mail about something I'm doing for my blog that I want you to participate in. Did you receive it? If not, let me know and I'll resend it.

Peace and solidarity,

Tasha

LISA VAZQUEZ said...

Welcome Khadija!

I do agree with you...we need to have multiracial and biracial categories. I would support that.

The U.S. Census has inaccurately reported many people of color because there is no distinction for those with parents of different ancestry. (I don't think we need categories for grandparents and great-grandparents of different ancestry, though.)

The assumption CAN NOT be made that all those who are biracial and multiracial are taking affirmative action slots. Affirmative action is not JUST for the black race. It included white women and all persons of color. Multiracial and biracial persons are persons of color and therefore as ENTITLED to affirmative action slots (if there are any such thing).

We really need to stop making blanket assumptions.

I don't know Tiger Woods personally (smile) but he said he was black AND Filipino AND Caucasian, not from just one group. I see nothing wrong with that - since it is a fact.

In having multiracial ancestry, that doesn't mean he doesn't BELONG anywhere. This is what I hear some black people saying about biracial and multiracial people.

He can be ALL groups at the same time. He can belong to any group that his ancestors are from or ALL. That is his choice - not the choice of others.

Granted, white people only consider those with two white parents to be white. I have not met anyone who is white and some other race state that they are only white ...well ok...Brazilians. (smile)

It seems that some black people want to reject any black person who acknowledges their full ancestry and I think that's extremely ignorant because NONE of them are 100% of any ONE ancestry.

Stacyann Chin is a lesbian feminist and she acknowledges that her dad is Chinese, although most black people may not guess it from looking at her initially. There's nothing wrong with her claiming black AND Chinese.

For example, I am black and I am Puerto Rican. Puerto Ricans are not some third race of people in this country.

I don't want to veer off of the topic of this post more than I have already. (smile)

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

________________________________

Welcome Tasha212!

Thanks for stopping by to share in the dialogue!

You are never late to the conversation! Anyone can jump in whenever they would like to!

You said:
"If you don't have a good understanding of your history and philosophy, I think that you are more susceptible to taking on the definitions and experiences of others."

I agree!

"When they first came to the table, they should've already had a plan that outlined their concerns."

I will need to ask Tami about this since she may know more about what occurred when black feminists first came to the table with white feminists. My suspicion is that they didn't come to the table prepared.

You said:
" We don't make any demands from the beginning..."

I wrote a post about this today concerning the next steps for us as we outline a strategy concerning the PAC and the support of white corporations.

You said:
"This stems from IMO black folks being taught to think on an emotional level when everybody else is taught to think on a level of self-interest and business."

I agree. The emotionalism factor has been very disadvantageous for black women. I am hoping we can dialogue more about this as a group. There are some women who actually send me email stating that they can't comment on the blog because they are too emotional. When we will get THAT in check and be able to participate constructively?

You said:
"I do acknowledge that there is a trend amongst black folk to embrace every aspect of their ancestry. While a lot of this is in an effort to be less black, some of it is genuine cureosity."

To me, there is no such thing as anyone trying to be LESS BLACK, only because none of the ancestors of slaves are EVER going to be 100% African.

White people will say that they are part-Irish and part-German and other whites do not start getting hostile about a white person who knows his/her ancestry. Only the black people who have issues about their OWN self-identification would justify this ignorant reaction towards other blacks who know their ancestry.

Frankly, some of it may have to do with the hidden shame that some black people have about not knowing their biological fathers and therefore only knowing HALF of their paternity.

You said:
"As far as labels are concerned, I think they are sometimes useful and sometimes useless. I think ultimately it is up to each individual to either accept or reject them."

I agree!

It is still amazing to me that ANYONE thinks that an explanation is needed if a person doesn't choose the labels that they choose.

Thanks again for sharing with us!

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

Miriam said...

LOL @ "Cablanasian" scholarships

Also, alot of what is being said is not very different. It seems we are more or less on the same page. Great!

The only thing I'd interject is: why do we think we have been conditioned to think emotionally? I think we are emotionally naturally.

Moving further,do we think all our perceived flaws are conditioned? I suspect they could just be misplaced goods. Misplaced values is all. (i.e. let's not reject ourselves. Let's embrace who we are, but become leaner and meaner)

LISA VAZQUEZ said...

Welcome Miriam!

It was a pretty hilarious comment from Khadija! I try not to encourage Khadija in her Jay-Leno-esque humor! (smile) But I did laugh about it.

The reason WHY I continually harp on the issues about self-identification is because I firmly believe that black people need to liberate themselves from this slave thinking.

I will sound the "SLAVE MIND" alarm whenever I encounter a slave mind. It's the only way our people will examine the thinking so we can eradicate it. It has to be named. We have to stop being accepting of it. This is why in 2008...slave thinking is still so prevalent.

The white master kept denouncing the black slave for acknowledging his ancestry and speaking in his native tongue and acknowledging his tribe and his homeland. The white master kept ridiculing the black slave with: "No, you're not Yoruba, you're N----r! That's what you are!"

And now... in 2008...the white person is no longer ridiculing the black person who acknowledged his FULL ancestry, it's the black people who are still slave-conditioned who scoff and mock a black person who states his or her ancestry.

There are more black families with children with different fathers too. At church, the Bishop asked those who were born out of wedlock to come to the altar and 70% of the audience came forward. He was speechless. I think some of this resentment is really disguised shame. Some of us know our entire family background on both sides of the family when other blacks don't even know their own biological father. Those are the ones who are scoffing most of the time. The ones who don't know their own lineage and also the ones who are still operating in the slave master's mindset of ridiculing the slave who knew his roots.

The reality is that the cultural landscape has changed in black America. There are more biracial and multiracial black people.

Does THAT diminish our political leverage for black people to know their ancestry? No.

Does it diminish it for white people? They still join forces as whites... whites here have ancestry from many countries and they still pledge allegiance to white America...but I know SOME want to see a united America.

The reality is that whether biracial or multiracial, we STILL are people of color so we STILL can wield leverage as people of color. The Hispanic population does not belong to one race! There are several categories now for the Hispanic population on many forms.

People of color need to come together...whether they have one black parent, or two black parents or one black grandparent.

You ask a good question.

Are our perceived flaws conditioned?

I suppose some could be. We can not discount the mental enslavement that is still so prevalent among our people. There are STILL black slaves in this country with shackles on - you just can't see those shackles. I'm serious.

I mentioned a book titled, POST TRAUMATIC SLAVE SYNDROME and it is an in-depth look at this conditioning that you are asking about.

I do think that this acceptance of emotionalism is part of the cultural conditioning that some have been more exposed to than others.

I told one blogger who came here being combative and accusatory that I was not putting up with that level of discourse in my house. There's sharing differing views and there's being rude and snide. She was being rude and snide and I addressed it. She never returned.

She either decided that she wanted to dialogue on blogs where rude and snide was accepted, or else she was incapable of being constructive when encountering views that she didn't like. This was not the first instance of her lack of civility in dialogue. I've seen it on other blogs.

That is one example but yes, I do think some of our people are conditioned to react and respond emotionally.

SheCodes showed an offensive image on her blog that another blogger posted today. The responses were ALL emotional outbursts...NO ONE offering strategy to address it...just emotional reactions. I see this on so many blogs.

I believe that how we react reflects how we are taught to react.

I'm not a psychologist but if you put me in a black clergy robe, I may start to sound like one!! *LOL*

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

Miriam said...

Hi Lisa,

My idea of emotion is that we are quick /prone/ most likely to react with the heart, spirit, emotion.

I think the problem is not so much the heart /emotion, etc. I think its a lack of using the intellect AS WELL.

Just as there are many people who are truly intellectual, but they can't even believe in a god, or they can't have a care or compassion for a person. They also have a problem, but its not the intellect -its the heart!

Khadija said...

*I actually woke up for early morning prayer without the alarm clock...Will wonders never cease*

Dear Silent African-American Audience,

For those who are wondering why I'm so adamant about the danger of African-Americans encouraging dual & multiple racial identifications [within our group, self-proclaimed outsiders can stay outside], I would strongly suggest that you read "The Destruction of Black Civilization: Great Issues of a Race From 4500 B.C. to 2000 A.D." by Chancellor Williams.

The author reviews the often destructive impact that Christianity, Islam, Arab invasions, & biracial & bicultural individuals/clans have had on past African civilizations. Regarding the often destructive impact of self-identified mixed-race persons:

". . . there were many tribes or societies in Africa which were exclusively Mulatto (to use the term loosely). Nothing was more characteristic of the mixed breed clans, tribes or societies than their unceasing efforts to emphasize their separate identity, and their constant fear of being considered 'Negroes' or Black Africans... The white man, by driving his offsprings as a wedge into the Black race is not only able to keep it weak by keeping it divided, but he is able to maintain effective control over it without the necessity of his presence." pg. 208.

Dual & multiple identifications usually lead to dual & multiple [and sometimes divided] loyalties. Bottom line: Black folks with dual & multiple loyalties have loyalties that aren't completely with you. And the other "half" of their identification might be with people who hate you! Remember the "Coloreds" in apartheid-era South Africa? This can destroy us from within. Beware of such persons setting policy for you.

The other thing is that this "let's celebrate ALL of our DNA" isn't being said in a vacuum when it comes to African-Americans. It's said in the context of an often Black-hating, self-hating Black people. The paper-bag test hasn't gone away---it's just been repackaged. Ideas that might not harm a healthy, self-respecting people can be fatal when swallowed by those who are already sick. Beware!

Peace, blessings & solidarity.

LISA VAZQUEZ said...

Welcome Miriam!

Thanks for adding that perspective!

I will think about that some more.

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

__________________________________

Welcome Khadija!

Thanks for sharing....although we are officially veering off topic!
I am guilty of it as well.

I do understand your concern.

Your statements reflect assumptions and generationalizations.

Very often, in our group dialogue, I challenge others (and myself) to put an end to the practice of making generalizations and assumptions about what all people think and what all people do and what all people WILL DO.

There are books that you have read that recorded that SOME PEOPLE did xyz or thought xyz. This does not mean that ALL PEOPLE will do so.


You said:
Dual & multiple identifications usually lead to dual & multiple [and sometimes divided] loyalties.


This is speculation. It will not be true for every person.

You said:
"Bottom line: Black folks with dual & multiple loyalties have loyalties that aren't completely with you.">

The statement is blatantly false and it does not and NEVER WILL apply to ALL PERSONS who know their entire ancestral history.

You said:
"It's said in the context of an often Black-hating, self-hating Black people."

Again, this is a generalization and it is an assumption that is being made about others that CAN NOT and WILL NEVER apply to every individual.

We must cease from this practice of making generalizations about what WE THINK other black people think.

I do it myself and I am constantly monitoring it.


Black solidarity has nothing to do with DNA.


Black consciousness has nothing to do with the PERCENTAGE of African that resides in a person's bloodline.

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

_______________________________

To All Commenters:

Please return the focus of the group dialogue to the topic of this post.

The post that relates to self-identification is titled "On Being Black And Other" and you are certainly more than welcome to comment on that issue in the comment section of that post.

Danielle said...

We can learn to keep our eyes on the prize. How many times in the business world have we had to work w/individuals that we may not have "liked" to accomplish a common goal?

My premise has always been that this is NOT a popularity contest. This is NOT Sweet Valley High. It is BUSINESS and should be conducted as such.

As long as the goals and objectives are clear on both sides, I say lets rock and roll. We DEF need to get rid of this idea that just because we're all Black that we have the same objectives.

That has NEVER been true and it probably never will be. What is that old expression? Just because you're my kind, don't make you my kin. I'll also add, it doesn't mean we can't do business together either.

Thanks for letting me Blow My Trumpet Lisa...

Standtall said...

I am a feminist and a womanist. I do not really see why white and black feminists and womanists can work together since there is a similarity of purpose.

Together we succeed via unity of purpose!!!

LISA VAZQUEZ said...

Welcome Danielle!

Thank you so much for chiming in!

We really do need to stop clinging to that assumption!

You know the old saying:
Just because we skin folk don't mean we kin folk! *LOL*

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

___________________________

Welcome StandTall!

I started reading the blogs of the black feminists and MANY of them have major issues and serious points of dissension with white feminists. I read some blogs of white feminists and there are some very low-ball conversations in how the concerns of black feminists are being "interpreted".

We will have to identify the issues and seek ways to develop more cohesive alliances with non-blacks (and with blacks).

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa