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To the person who decided to lift my words from this blog, I notice that my exact words are in the Washington Post!

Article: "Ties That Align" by Krissah Thompson, 3/18/2009
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Monday, April 28, 2008

BLACK WOMEN SPEAK ABOUT SEXUAL ETHICS AND SEXUAL EMPOWERMENT

Today, I want to do something different on this blog. I'd like to facilitate a different level of dialogue with the visitors of this blog.

I want to continue our discussion from Saturday about the examination of the sexual exploitation of black women and also add another layer to that discussion by examining the definition of our sexual ethics as black women.

I think this is an important dialogue for us to have.

I am not speaking about the sexuality of black women in a vacuum and I am not speaking from the standpoint of hetero-normalcy. (I am fully aware that all of the visitors of this blog do not define themselves as heterosexual.)

It is difficult to discuss sexual ethics and subtract our heterosexuality or homosexuality or bisexuality from the exploration of our self-identification as it relates to our ethics.

I’d like us to think more critically about how our self-definition has been fostered. To move us into that space where we need to marinate in, I'd like you to ask yourself some pertinent questions:
Who am I intellectually?
Who am I emotionally?
Who am I politically?
Who am I culturally?
Who am I spiritually?
Who am I theologically?
Who am I morally?
Who am I racially?
Who am I ethnically?
Who am I maternally and paternally?
Who am I sexually?


1) Identify WHO and WHAT has defined you.

2) Take accountability for WHO and WHAT has defined you.

3) Make a concerted effort to alter the paradigm that has defined you - if you discover that you have unintentionally (or intentionally) given away your power and your right to define yourself.

I do understand that many Christians will say that the Bible defines who we are and who we must become. I won't debate that in this discussion of sexual ethics, however, I understand and recognize that belief is prevalent in the Christian community.

The reason I pose those questions is because I am not sure how black women can move into the full exploration of our sexual ethics until we understand what has shaped who we have become – and until we identify who we intend to become – individually and collectively.

Before we begin this important discussion, allow me to share a few online resources:
(Click on a title.)

Buddhist Sexual Ethics

Consent, Agency and Semantics of Sexuality in the Babylonian Talmud

Sexual Ethics in Islam and the Western World

Black Sexual Ethics: The Use and Misuse of Black Sexuality

Christian Sexual Ethics and Teleological Organicity

Catholic Sexual Ethics

Please feel welcome to add more resources to this list.

Blogger and Princeton seminarian, Adam Walker Cleaveland summarizes below the FIVE GUIDELINES FOR SEXUAL ETHICS that he read in the book by Marie M. Fortune, Love Does No Harm:

FIVE GUIDELINES FOR SEXUAL ETHICS

Peer Relationship:
Is my choice of intimate partner a peer, i.e. someone whose power is relatively equal to mine? We must limit our sexual interactions to our peers. Some people are off limits for our sexual interests.

Authentic Consent:
Are both my partner and I authentically consenting to our sexual interaction? Both of us must have information, awareness, equal power and the option to say "no" without being punished, as well as the option to say "yes."

Stewardship of My Sexuality:
Do I take responsibility for protecting myself and my partner against sexually
transmitted diseases and to insure reproductive choice? This is a question of stewardship (the wise care for and management of the gift of sexuality) and anticipating the literal consequences of our actions. Taking this responsibility seriously presupposes a relationship: knowing someone over time and sharing a history in which trust can develop.

Sharing of Pleasure:
Am I committed to sharing sexual pleasure and intimacy in my relationships? My concern should be both for my own needs and those of my partner.

Faithfulness:
Am I faithful to my promises and commitments?
Whatever the nature of a commitment to one's partner and whatever the duration of that commitment to one's partner and whatever the duration of that commitment, fidelity requires honesty and the keeping of promises.
Change in an individual may require a change in the commitment which hopefully can be achieved through open and honest communication.

Let’s take some time and think intently about these things. I will step back and allow the blog visitors to direct this dialogue.

I feel that I need to mention something upfront since I don't want the visitors of this blog to feel that they have to shield who they are in this blog community. As a Christian minister, I have made decisions for my own life that I do not believe everyone must abide by in their own lives. Everyone's experiences ARE welcome here as part of our group dialogue. We are here in this blog community as black women - with different beliefs and philosophies - diligently strategizing about the future of black women. Everyone here brings a piece of her own life fabric to this extraordinary mosaic. I may not share everyone's beliefs or personal experiences but I certainly value the diversity within our community of black women. The poem on the sidebar says, "a friend is one with whom you dare to be yourself".

Dare to be yourself with me, as my essays attest, I have dared to be myself with you.

I look forward to seeing your comments.

58 COMMENTS:

PioneerValleyWoman said...

What a wonderful essay, Rev. Lisa!

The sexual ethics one really addresses some serious social ills and violations:

1. Teenage girls being vulnerable to predators--they are not the peers of grown men.

2. Men and women who don't think of condom use.

3. Men and women who have sex when they are under the influence and are careless.

4. Making pledges to be faithful but knowing full well that there is no intention and no discussion of it.

Hagar's Daughter said...

I'm afraid my dear sista that this is too spiritual for some of our Christian sisters and brothers - LOL!

This is a great platform for beginning the work of dialoging about sexual ethics and living from this ethic. I pray that we can begin in earnest to work toward honest talk and change.

LISA VAZQUEZ said...

Welcome Pioneer Valley Woman!
Welcome Hagar's Daughter!

Why am I not surprised that the priests added the first comments in this dialogue? (smile)

It's a difficult topic to be honest about.

I was a bit worried that people would not want to discuss this topic freely but we MUST engage in this dialogue as black women because our collective empowerment involves all aspects of who we are as women - and that includes who we are sexually.

The "who am I" questions are necessary because HOW we answer those questions has an impact on the application of our sexual ethics.

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
________________________
@Hagar's Daughter
I am sooo tempted to ask our shero [that's code for you-know-who]! I am absolutely TERRIFIED to ask her anything of this magnitude...

{exhaling}
Lisa

Regina said...

What an interesting post!! You don’t often come across topics such as this because people are often afraid to voice their real feelings.

It was not very easy for me to say who or what defined me because there are lots of factors that played a part in this. I am a Strong Black Woman (no she isn’t dead!), A Divorcee, A Mother, A Daughter, A Sister, A Christian, A Friend, A Leader, An Object of Desire, A Target of Hate. This list can go on for a while, but my point is that for ME a lot of things play together to make me the person that I am today. The person I am today is not the person I was yesterday and not the person I will be tomorrow. My life, goals and aspirations change and so I change and adapt.
I know who I am and what my worth is because I was raised to know and appreciate me. A big part of the dismissal, degradation, and humiliation of woman (it is not just black woman who are degraded) is the fact that they think it is OK and normal to be degraded because no one has taught them otherwise. A big mistake is thinking that you must have a man (or woman, whatever your preference!) to define you and make you worth something. I am hear to just say that a partner can not define you, no one can define you but you yourself. If you don’t truly love yourself how can someone else love you?
So I guess I will stop here and give someone else a chance to write something!! But I’ll be back to check out the outcome of this discussion!
Peace & Love

LISA VAZQUEZ said...

Welcome Regina!

Thanks so much for dropping by my neighborhood!

This discussion is definitely going to heat up! I'm not even posting a topic tomorrow because I know we will still be wading in the deep waters with this one!

Please, share freely! This is a safe space for sistas to open up.

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

____________________________

@ All blog visitors who are reading this topic and gasping in shock

If you want me to post your comments without your name attached to them, you will have to send them to me by email with that request.

I will paste them into the comments section as "BLOGGER A" and "BLOGGER B", "BLOGGER C", etc.! (Of course, I will be the only person who knows who these persons are.) I know this is a heavy topic so I didn't want anyone to be reluctant to participate due to any concerns about identifying themselves.

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

Miriam said...

Hi Lisa,

So many questions, I'm not quite sure how to condense it all.

Also, I suspect that my situation / experience is quite different than most so i may end up being the way left field statistics that skews the line graph.

At any rate:

How do I define myself? I think what MADE me define myself, first of all, was that I was molested when young.

So far I haven't found any books that really talk about the spiritual effects of such an ordeal, but I DO know inside of me that it uproots your very fabric. Those very teachings that the previous generation tries to instill in your bones as it grows so it will mesh with your very being-- those things get pulled out of the body. Gone. Free of past teachings. That can be good or bad depending on how you see it. LOL!

So, I think that uprooted the "christianity" out of me. But that left me sort of free to define myself as I choose. I had to search deep inside myself for what I valued most. It was truth. I loved truth. I even preferred someone to hate me truthfully than to fake it and show that they like me.

Anyway, that's some definition of me: a Truth seeker. Survivor. a Jewess. a Wife. a Mother. a Daughter /in law. a Teacher (to my kids). An example( -the scariest role we all play. lol)

As far as sexuality, because of my background I could potentially go way promiscuous or way the other way -according to all the stats I've read. But I am more on the prudish side. haha. So, it doesn't make for a very sexually interesting convo. Plus, the lifestyle I have chosen, Orthodox Judaism is not a big advocate of very promiscuous behavior (not to say there aren't some tricksters and whatnots in the shadows).

Our lives are pretty simple. HWe try to make ends meet. Pray alot. Learn alot. Blog a bit *wink*

Khadija said...

Lisa,

My, my, my....what wonderfully substantive questions. My opportunity/problem lately has been that the answers to the first 6 questions are in a state of flux. Things that I thought I was certain about have shifted around. Regarding the 1st 6 issues, even the things that are more or less fixed have questions swirling around them. This has produced an annoying lack of equilibrium.

For example, I'm a Muslim. But exactly what kind of Muslim? I've been gravitating toward some beliefs that other Muslims tend to consider heretical [this angle is much too long & involved to get into].

The other issue for me is that I believe that we are what we actually DO; not what we choose to label ourselves. It seems that most people have a real disconnect between their chosen labels & their actions. And the label/self-definition disconnect cuts both ways. We often give ourselves flattering labels that are not at all reflected in our actions.

We also tend to withhold labels from ourselves unless they have been validated by others. A quick example is that it took me a while to realize that I really AM a writer. Because writing is what I am doing---I'm currently writing a book. I don't have to wait for it to be published in order to claim that label. The same with a friend that is a songwriter/musician. It took her a while to embrace that identity because her "day job" is practicing law.

Peace, blessings & solidarity.

LISA VAZQUEZ said...

Welcome Miriam!

Thanks so much for dropping by! I want to marinate in your words for a while.

I saw this quote by one of my "sheroes", bell hooks:

"If I were really asked to define myself, I wouldn’t start with race; I wouldn’t start with blackness; I wouldn’t start with gender; I wouldn’t start with feminism. I would start with stripping down to what fundamentally informs my life, which is that I’m a seeker on the path..."

I would love to define myself as a truth-seeker. Ministers are supposed to be completely honest, and consistently authentic with themselves and others, right?

I fail at times. I think I'd be lying if I said that I was a truth-seeker. I am not there yet. I know that there have been times when I would not confront certain truths within my very being.

Other times, I have dealt with people behind a "wall". I’ve come to recognize that there is something intrinsically dishonest about obsessive self-protection, because at some point it stops serving the purpose intended and becomes a process of merely hiding out from the world.

I want to be a truth-seeker and a truth-bearer; I don't want to strive to be. I want to actually BE!

Thanks for inspiring me to accept that this is still a worthwhile and attainable goal for my personhood.

Keep sharing!

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

________________________
@ Welcome Khadija!

I agree with you!

I posed the questions but then I had to stand back and really think about my own answers.

You said:
"It seems that most people have a real disconnect between their chosen labels & their actions." Tell me, why is that? What exactly keeps us from reaching authenticity that engenders our wholeness? Is it fear of having to confront ourselves? Is it pride? Is it self-deception? What stands in our way?

Thanks so much for stopping by!

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

Khadija said...

Lisa,

You asked, "What exactly keeps us from reaching authenticity that engenders our wholeness?" I think simple laziness is at the core of this. It's so much easier to take a label at face value & run with it.

Matching labels to actions requires keeping track & some introspection. Why do any of that if you don't have to? Especially if you know there's a good chance that you won't like the answer? Or if accepting a label involves more dedication? For example, this "writer" label prods me to spending part of most days either writing or reading research for my book. The "writer" label takes my activities out of the comfortable hobby realm---where it would make sense to go months without working on the book.

All of this is WORK. Which is something to be avoided in a fundamentally lazy, instant-gratification society. That's why I'm irritable about the flux I'm in regarding the 1st 6 questions. It was so much more comfortable when this was all settled. Now, I'm forced to think. Again. :(

My former personal trainer kept me in stitches laughing about how everybody wants a pill to get them into shape. Sometimes, the labels function as instant-gratification pills. No further action is required.

Peace, blessings & solidarity.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Now that I have had more time to think, here are some further responses.

I have been shaped and defined by my parents' puritanical Catholicism. I shaped it myself in that I came to reject the narrowly prescribed views of sexuality as developed and propagated by the church--no need to go into details--many know the Catholic church's teaching. My development was a gradual process which culminated in my becoming Episcopalian.

I am fully aware of the outside forces which try to ascribe black girls/women's sexuality in terms of others' control and ownership. I was protected from that. If anything, my parents' Puritanical conservatism contributed to that. But for me, conservatism need not mean naivete or ignorance, as though sex was something bad, ie., when taking place outside of marriage.

Instead, I saw sex in terms of sexual ethics, that sex is important enough to be engaged with in terms of respect for each partner and with responsibility.

I am defined by others, I imagine, in the context of being married interracially. My husband is white, and there is a lot of baggage which can go with that, which others can try to place onto black women with white men.

Since I define myself in light of my experiences and knowledge, I felt capable of negotiating a relationship with him and with full awareness of him, in order to build a foundation in trust and with the purpose of minimizing the garbage of history and others' perceptions.

Hagar's Daughter said...

Lisa, you and PVW, keep a sista's mind on work mode - I love it!!!

When I think of who I am I have to begin with being a spiritual person. I don't think of spirituality and Christianity as synonymos, though this was not always the case. I define spirituality as connecting with that which is greater than myself - God, the universe, the collective other (other people). When I disrespect myself and/or allow others to disrepect me, and when I disrespect others, and when I disrespect creation, then I offend the Creator.

Even as a child & teen I understood this instinctively and lived it. I feel that my parents and my extended family created an environment that fostered in me a sense that no one had the right to cause me harm in anyway, though some may seek to it is never okay and it is never okay to remain silent about being harmed or threatened (period).

Doing things just to be liked was never high on my list, and I try to get along with others. I have been labeled as "mean," but I just speak out when I feel someone is being disrespectful. Anyway, I've lived by this even when negotiating my sexuality: I determine who, when, and if; and I consider the cost of my decisions and my actions. I live by this even as a married woman and I have not even been tempted to have an affair - sexually, emotionally, or any type. The marital commitment is greater than I and if something isn't right then I discuss with my husband and we work on it. If it ever comes to the point where we couldn't and I felt that the relationship is distroying my spirit or that it is abusive then I have no problems with moving on. This is something my husband and I both know. I don't look to wear abuse as a badge of courage because somehow "suffering" is a spiritual gift from God (I'll probably write a post on this.)

We all need to live intentionally, no matter how difficult it is sometimes.

LISA VAZQUEZ said...

Welcome Khadija!

Thanks for your careful reflection!

I agree with you, that our intentional negligence is tied to a desire for a lack of self-accountability.

You said:
"...the labels function as instant-gratification pills."

I need to think about this more deeply.

We often "claim" that we don't want to be labeled but that those labels serve the purpose of allowing us to be inauthentic with ourselves.

Much to think about...
Lisa

________________________
Welcome Pioneer Valley Woman!

Your insights are so compelling.

So many women (not just black women) begin their sex lives without reaching a place of feeling emotionally empowered to negotiate sexual relationships. Most women are seeking to have an emotional need filled and they are bartering for that “fix” with sex.

In this dialogue, I am forced to consider how I defined sex at the earliest point of my adulthood. I am not sure that I’ve radically altered that definition – now that I think about it!

When I was much younger, I think sex had this connotation of rebellion. I didn’t think of sex as an act of responsibility. I also listened to black women in college who were using sex for bartering and negotiating relationships with men. In the movie, “Poetic Justice”, Regina King’s character advises Janet Jackson’s character about how to handle sexual bartering. She said: “girl you need to ration it!” This line stayed in my memory because it seemed so ignorant. The advice seemed so disempowering. But the black women audience in the theatre roared with laughter.

I remember being a teenager and hearing the “brothas” use the expression "she gave it up" (which referred to a woman permitting sex to occur). This caused me to see a correlation in the act of sex being tied to a relinquishment of power.

I absolutely love when you said:
"...I define myself in light of my experiences and knowledge...".

So many women define themselves based on societal perception, societal expectation, the expectations of others, and class conditioning. All of this must be dismantled! If a woman can not define herself, based on self-knowledge, then she is basically incapable of negotiating relationships constructively.

A light bulb moment for me...

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

_________________________
Welcome Hagar's Daughter!

You have given me so much to ponder.

I agree with you about Christianity and spirituality not being synonymous.

I don't think that spirituality and morality are synonymous.

I too was taught that no one had a right to harm me. Still, my mother was murdered and that became a lesson for me in elementary school – the lesson that even if no one had a RIGHT to violate or harm, they could still do it. I had to navigate through the ambiguity of that before I had reached a point of being emotionally capable of doing so.

You said:
"...I've lived by this even when negotiating my sexuality: I determine who, when, and if; and I consider the cost of my decisions and my actions."

So many of our black women don't even know how to do this! I am sure you have observed this in your line of work. I know that I have.

You keep me thinking – and I am grateful for that!

(smiles)
Lisa

__________________________

@ All

Thanks to so much for this rich deposit! I am learning a lot by receiving the wisdom that all of you have poured out so freely.

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

Khadija said...

Lisa,

You mentioned how "so many women (not just Black women) begin thier sex lives without reaching a place of feeling emotionally empowered to negotiate sexual relationships."

My reply: So many Black women LIVE their ENTIRE lives without reaching a place of feeling empowered to negotiate ANYTHING when it comes to men. I don't have the pulse of what's going on with other races of women in that department. I just know that Black women in general have thrown away their negotiating power more & more with each year that passes. I watched the process begin when I was in college.

A certain number of young women were spending the emotional investment that should be reserved for serious boyfriends on guys they had just started dating. For example, providing home-cooked meals (just like Big Mama made) for Negroes on the 1st date. Then they regressed to treating boyfriends as if they were husbands. I watched more & more young women starting acting like groupies when dealing with guys.

I had a textbook case study of what NOT to do by watching my best friend from high school. She did just about every dis-empowering & humiliating thing in the book. It was depressing to watch & we ultimately grew apart during college.

But I fault her parents [specifically her mother] for setting the stage for that. My friend grew up in a house where her mother tolerated her father's extramarital girlfriends calling the house. One tale to illustrate how far out of pocket all of this was:

One day, my best friend & I went over to her house after school to listen to music. The phone rang while we were there. She was in the bathroom, so she asked me to pick up & take a message. The female voice on the other end shrieked: "Oh HELLLLLL NO! __________'s got another b**** up in there??!!"

This particular whore had gotten so comfortable calling over there that she recognized the voices of my best friend, her sister, and their mother. My voice was an unfamiliar female voice. My friend's mother stayed married to her father. I was amazed & horrified that her mother would allow her own daughters to be disrespected & exposed to that just to hold onto her marriage [such as it was]. I didn't mention this incident to my parents. In the back of my mind, I was concerned that they were going to put an end to this friendship if they knew that this was the sort of home environment I was visiting.

Peace, blessings & solidarity.

LISA VAZQUEZ said...

Welcome Khadija!

That story about your friend’s mother is so very sad. The daughter wound up making the same choice to be victimized by men as the mother had done.

It is extremely difficult to break the “victim” complex, once it has become a large part of a woman’s self-definition.

Some women feel that they aren’t owed any respect. If a woman has no self-respect then she won’t enforce respect.

I keep harping on self-definition because MOST of our choices as women are tied to how we define ourselves.

I hear a lot of black women discussing on various blogs that we have to make different life choices – but it’s deeper than that.

For some women, there must be a complete demolition of the old self-definition and construction of a new self-definition.

You said:
Then they regressed to treating boyfriends as if they were husbands.
Some of them didn’t come from homes where there WAS a husband for their mom. Therefore, they heard mom referring to her boyfriend as “my man” and became conditioned to think that boyfriend = husband. Especially if mom has children with the boyfriend!

I completely know what you mean when you said, “I watched more & more young women starting acting like groupies when dealing with guys.”
The men in tv ministry are treated like rock stars! I have seen the groupies. They are everywhere he goes.

As for the negotiating power that women throw away, I think that the “good black men are as rare as blue diamonds” mentality causes them to believe that they can’t negotiate anything. They feel that they must take it or leave it because that man has seven other women on speed dial. One brotha told me that taking a woman to a restaurant for a date was not part of the plans because he says: “some sistas will give it up for a Happy Meal and a cup of ice water.”

That is utter desperation.

Sexual ethics are tainted by the perceptions of the scarcity of black men.

Sexual ethics are skewed by the emotional desperation that renders any negotiations null and void.


Thanks for your insights!

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

Khadija said...

Lisa,

That's a very important point you made about women being conditioned to think that boyfriend = husband. I hadn't thought of that. It's another example of the warped perceptions caused by the lack of marriage in the Black community.

Not to rehash a previous debate, but to rehash a previous debate. *Smile* I said some of this in an earlier e-mail, but let me repeat it publicly for this conversation:
There IS an imbalance (or "scarcity") when it comes to marriageable & family-oriented Black men.

It's not a good thing to hear you & others continue to discount & deny the reality that your sisters are describing to you. THIS PRACTICE IS DEFINITELY CRUEL & SMUG, & IT'S ALSO OFTEN MALICIOUS.

I'll explain what's malicious about it further down. You hurt other women when you suggest that what they see with their own eyes is not real. Isn't this the same thing that guys do when denying the existence or extent of sexism? Or when Whites assure us that racism isn't as bad as we think it is?

As I mentioned in my e-mail, most of my male relatives in my father's generation were decent & good family men. Most of my male relatives in my age group (early 40s) and younger are NOT. The bulk of my male relatives are middle-aged & middle-class 'players' who exploit the women who are foolish enough to get involved with them. Only 2 male relatives are decent family men. The rest are people that I wouldn't want to see involved with anyone that I cared about.

I doubt that the situation I'm describing with my male relatives is unique. In fact, it's probably being multiplied by millions of Black families. I'm not saying that my male relatives are beasts who walk on two legs (although at least 1 is---we hear rumors that he beats the women in his life). But they are NOT "good Black men." They are part of what's wrong with the Black community.

Your good Black man brother & good Black man father do not outweigh or discount the legions who are not good Black men. It is human nature to exploit advantages of any kind (be they numerical or otherwise). Unless you really think 'our' men are saints, it's not rational to deny the existence of an imbalance in terms of actual availability.

Why I think this denial exists: There's the surface reason of not wanting to believe that the Black community is in as bad off as it is. "Things aren't so bad that there actually aren't enough men! That can't be it!"

I think there's also a deeper, malicious reason for this denial of the scarcity of marriageable Black men:

Many of us waive our husbands around as talismans that somehow validate us as responsible thinkers when it comes to Black women's issues. "See, take what I'm saying seriously because I can prove that I don't 'hate' Black men! See my beautiful good Black man husband that I looooove dearly!" Unlike Black male bloggers or commenters (who very RARELY mention their wives when they are married), Black women pepper their discussions with frequent references to their "beautiful good Black man husbands."

I think women unconsciously use this as a power-play club to hit other women in the head & 'lord it over' them. To quickly establish their place in the pecking order of women. After all, we've been conditioned to measure ourselves based on whether or not we've got a man. And, having cleared the 'got a man' hurdle, we measure ourselves based on how good a 'catch' our man is. Even women who think that they're above that sort of thinking. Even women who think that they are 'conscious.'

I hope & pray that I've never been this type of woman.

After mentioning one's 'good Black man husband' to establish one's spot near the top of the female pecking order, the next step is to deny the reality of an imbalance. Which leads seamlessly to the message that "If you don't have a good Black man something must be wrong with you that has to be 'healed.'" And so it turns out that even sisters who claim to be Black women's champions are mentally beating down other Black women. All under the guise (and sometimes the actual intention) of being helpful.

Which leads to more psychological lashing of Black women. Next we are encouraged to abase ourselves & agree with the message that "I'm an unworthy wretch who must be cleansed and 'heal' before I'm worthy of good things in life."

NO! A thousand times 'no' to this!

As I said in response to an earlier post, I reject the idea that the masses of Black women have to jump through special 'healing' requirements before being entitled to the good things they want in life. No other race of woman is required to be mentally beat-down with 'healing' lectures before they can have marriages, families, children, careers, or whatever it is that they want. Other races of women have serious issues, but they still have marriages, families,children, careers, whatever. We are no less deserving of good things in life.

With all due respect, if you got married young & have been out of the dating pool for any significant amount of time, then it's very easy for you to be out of touch with what's going on.

Peace, blessings & solidarity.

Khadija said...

One other thought that I forgot to mention in my above rant: Black women will continue to suffer as long as we remain trapped in the "nothing but a Black man" trickbag. There IS a scarcity/imbalance that works to our disadvantage.

And we need to open our eyes & acknowledge that Black men in general don't feel any sort of 'nothing but a Black woman' obligation. We are fools if we continue to uphold this 'nothing but a Black partner' thinking BY OURSELVES.

We have more options than we recognize. It's long past time we started exercising them. And train our daughters to exercise all of their options. That is, unless we are content with them facing the same degrading circumstances that we are discussing. Where Black women are exploited as a surplus 'booty call' population by an ever-dwindling number of eligible Black men.

Peace, blessings & solidarity.

LISA VAZQUEZ said...

Welcome Khadija!

I thought that I posted a reply to this in the morning!

Now, I see that it is not appearing on screen. (I see that more technical difficulties are surfacing as I attempt to manage this blog! *lol*) I only hope that I was not typing my lengthy reply to you in someone else's comment section! I have been in other discussions today and the comment window looks the same on many of these blogs. (Yes, I need glasses! *lol*)

When you have time today, please help me understand how each point you have made above ties into how black women foster sexual ethics so that I can pull it all into the proper context. Otherwise, I think I may be responding outside of the context in which you intended me to receive your remarks.

Let me touch on the points you have made below:

You said:
“It's not a good thing to hear you & others continue to discount & deny the reality that your sisters are describing to you. THIS PRACTICE IS DEFINITELY CRUEL & SMUG, & IT'S ALSO OFTEN MALICIOUS.”

I hear you, Khadija. I really do.

I need all of my sistas to hear me on this point I am about to make because it is important for all to fully understand this in order to move in black solidarity with women who do not share their experiences.

I do not HAVE to "own" all of the experiences of other black women as part of the record of my history.

Their experiences are THEIR experiences.

Yes, we have a shared ancestry as black women. Yes, we have a shared history as black women. This does not mean that we have all SHARED the same experiences throughout our lives. We haven't.

I was in a blog discussion a month ago and another sista basically said, "you have some unusual perspectives" which (with my lens) seemed to single ME out as being different than the rest of the women in the discussion while other women were sharing THEIR views.

There was a small part of me that wanted to respond:
"Unusual to WHO? You? It's so unusual in your sphere if a black woman speaks her truth and it doesn't resemble your own?"

We have to be willing to say: "It is an asset to the collective that we are diverse as black women, that we have different perspectives and different histories and different legacies."

Black women are not a monolithic group. Can we ALL accept that? Sometimes, I receive an impression that ALL of us can not accept that.

We must ask that question because it's a deeper question than it seems. It MUST be answered.

Because we have not all had the same experiences, we have not all been conditioned in the same way. Because we have not all been conditioned in the same way, we will have different perspectives.

I can have different experiences and express the perspectives that come from those experiences.

The next sista can too! And the next.

Communicating MY own experiences does not diminish someone else’s experiences.

If a sista shares her perspectives with me, I will draw the conclusion that those perspectives are based on HER experience and HER history.

It does not mean that I must view her perspectives as an irrefutable fact. What I think about her perspectives is this...her perspectives are factual to her.

You may say that many others share those perspectives. Okay...

It doesn't matter to me if a million people share the perspectives one person has put on the table. White people have many perspectives that they embrace widely - and it doesn't make it more valid for all of us simply because many of them embrace it.

If a sista decides that if I have not embraced her perspectives as my very own that her view is being diminished...well...THAT decision she has made is actually a reflection of what is unhealed within HER.

It is not a reflection of my actions or thinking, because I don’t think that her perspectives ARE diminished or discounted simply because they are not received as a fact in relation to my own history.

I have observed that some women actually believe that if they are NOT being validated then by default, it means they are being diminished.

Not so!

You said:
“I think women unconsciously use this as a power-play club to hit other women in the head & 'lord it over' them. To quickly establish their place in the pecking order of women.”

I haven’t observed this with married sistas. I believe that marriage, for many black women, transforms their self-identity in a profound way. Perhaps it does not transform the self-identity of black men as profoundly. I haven't asked the brothas about this. I think that black women mention their marital status in order to communicate that it is a part of who they are. (Ditto for black women who are mothers.)

You said:
“After all, we've been conditioned to measure ourselves based on whether or not we've got a man.”

I know you meant to say some black women have been conditioned that way. All black women have not been conditioned in the same way.

I am not sure that black girls who grow up with confident, self-assured and nurturing fathers are being conditioned to believe that they are measured in society (or in the black community) based on whether or not they have a man. I can't imagine WHY a secure, intelligent and affirming black man would teach this to his children....WOW.

I honestly believe that some of that "I am less than if I don't have a man" conditioning is being reinforced by black women who feel that they are not complete without a man.

Often, if someone feels a certain way, they will ASSUME that everyone else feels that way.

I am not sure if those women who feel that way have learned this from other black women or if they learned it from insecure black men - or both.

You said:
“…it turns out that even sisters who claim to be Black women's champions are mentally beating down other Black women.”

I actually haven’t observed this to the degree that perhaps you have. What I observe more often is that black women are mentally beaten down by being entrenched in a white supremacist patriarchal society that dehumanizes them on many fronts.

As a result of that, they may (knowingly or unknowingly) unleash their bottled up anger on those who are closest to them...which often happens to be other black women.

Sometimes, challenging black women to think DIFFERENTLY causes some black women to draw the conclusion that they are being “beaten down”.

In a discussion a couple of days ago, you and I touched upon the whole issue of "filters". We observed that some people have a filter that causes them to interpret everything someone says or does through a particular lens.

Being confronted hurts sometimes. Being told that we MUST raise the bar is not something that many welcome joyfully. Raising the bar and whacking sistas over the head with the bar is not the same thing. It's not even CLOSE to being the same thing.

What I have learned is that just because I feel pain from someone's words doesn’t mean that someone has lashed out.

You mentioned:
"...the message that "If you don't have a good Black man something must be wrong with you that has to be 'healed.'"

My father told me and my sister something when we were pre-teens. He pointed to our dog and said, "Look at Bullet. Look how interested he is in dog feces. He's so interested that he doesn't mind tasting dog feces. Men of low character tend to sniff around women whose character resembles dog feces. They are intrigued enough by them to want to taste them. Be sure that you pay close attention to your character because what keeps sniffing around you says something about what you are attracting."

My experience has been that harboring toxic emotions will draw men (and people) who feed on toxicity or produce toxicity.

I have been involved with trifling guys and wonderful guys - and I have been trifling and wonderful as a woman.

You said:
“Other races of women have serious issues, but they still have marriages, families, children, careers, whatever. We are no less deserving of good things in life.”

I honestly don’t think ANY black women are stating that black women are less deserving of the good things in life, Khadija. I haven’t see that discussion on ANY blogs that I have visited.

I haven’t heard that discussion within the church construct either. I see, though, that many, many black women do not believe that they are deserving of healthy relationships. I think that, on many levels, this belief comes from what has been modeled for them. This becomes what they have been conditioned to expect.

I will say this however... you mention what women of other races have ... ANY woman can have a marriage, a family, children and a career but if she is dysfunctional, then every sphere where she moves in will have dysfunction brought to it.

You said:
“With all due respect, if you got married young & have been out of the dating pool for any significant amount of time, then it's very easy for you to be out of touch with what's going on.”

I was engaged when I was in my third year of undergrad and I was 19 years old at the time…and naïve…and very rebellious towards my father at that time and therefore making immature and short-sighted choices for my future when I was still a prideful teenager who did not know how to see the divine plan for my future. It was a mistake to be engaged at that age and I corrected that mistake before it altered my destiny.

For the record, I am not married. I should have mentioned that.

Being unmarried doesn't mean that I understand everything that ALL single black women feel, but I do hear a lot of conversations among black women about their singleness.

I don't think that a married woman would not know what is going on with single women because I think at least 65% of black women in this country are unmarried. I imagine that married sistas have unmarried friends and are aware of a variety of perspectives about singleness - even if they aren't single.

I don’t have any negative feelings about marriage and I see that it has been deeply enriching for many black women who have healthy marriages. If God asked me to marry someone, I would do it.

You said:
”Black women will continue to suffer as long as we remain trapped in the "nothing but a Black man" trickbag.”

I agree with you!

I have been romantically and sexually involved with white men and I have been romantically and sexually involved with black men. I don’t have a preference for men from one race over men from other races.

I never have been taught that I NEEDED to prefer one over the other. (At this point in my life, if God let me choose a mate, I would probably discriminate based on socioeconomic class affiliation but I don’t even know if I can say THAT with total certainty...)

So many black women only desire black mates (and I am speaking about heterosexual and lesbian sistas).

I think that we are TAUGHT what to desire and what NOT to desire and then we tell ourselves that what we desire is OUR OWN CHOICE. We need to address that falsehood as part of understanding our sexual ethics.

We must examine:
Is it truly our CHOICE or is it what we are conditioned to CHOOSE? That's an important question.


Thank you so much for this exchange we are having.

I am very grateful that I have this forum to delve into these issues with so many intelligent and thoughtful sistas. This entire dialogue has been very important for me – and I hope – for all of us.

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

The PrivyChairLady said...

I LOVE YOU, because I love this post. Yes, issues involving sexuality and sexism almost always seem to be the "the last standoff" among Black people with religion being the shut off valve when we don't seriously discuss them.

Khadija said...

Lisa,

Thank you for your thoughtful replies to my rants. Let me say something that I should have pointed out ('fessed up to, perhaps would be a more precise statement?) long ago...

I've mentioned in other discussions that about 8 months ago I snapped out of Black nationalist trance that I've been in for the past 20-odd years. Now that I'm out of the trance (plus the effects of a few other life changes), the world & my actions look very different to me. And not in a flattering way, in terms of my previous positions.

Because I was comfortable in my own personal life, I see now that I was dismissive of other Black women's pain.

Because I was comfortable in my own personal bubble, I see now that I denied the extent to which the Black community & Black family has disintegrated.

Because of the above, I see now that I was sometimes smug, callous & catty in reassuring my sisters that things aren't as drastic as they were saying they are. I was complacent in saying many things that resemble some of the statements you're making. That's why I have visceral reactions to some of the things you're saying.

The unconscious power plays, etc. above that I described was a catalogue of some of my own [hopefully past] faults. I doubt that I was alone in these behaviors.

I see now that I sometimes took positions that unwittingly put extra pebbles in some of my sisters' emotional shoes. At a minimum, I hope that I'm able to encourage & protect to an extent that offsets whatever damage I've done.

I repent. I repent. I repent. I ask God's forgiveness & hope that these emotional pebbles I heaped onto others aren't heaped onto my final account. I ask God to help me rectify my political & cultural positions. And to help me use my (often loud & strident) voice to defend my sisters. To defend our already-battered-from-a-thousand angles psyches. Including unintended battering from those who want to help us.

Given that I believe I've got a deficit account going when it comes to looking out for Black women's hearts & minds, I'm going to err on the side of trying to be protective toward other Black women's spirits.

I agree with the observation about dogs & their fascination with feces. I think another valid observation concerns what one catches while unknowingly fishing in a polluted stream. I think both observations apply. I also feel that, at this point, the Black community is polluted at its core in ways that many of us don't want to acknowledge.

I get that you're not lashing out at anyone. I get that you want what's best for us. I'm not trying to get you to change your point of view. I'm not asking, nor do I require, anyone to agree with me.

I'm loudly saying the things I say because I know there's a silent audience out there. Some of whom might come away from these conversations feeling beaten down & obligated to heap another burden on their backs. Some of whom might take messages away from these conversations that were never intended. I hope to give comfort, support & encouragement to these women.

Finally, I want others to understand something that I found out as a teenager that helped me a lot: We don't have to fix all, most, or even many of the things that are wrong with us to have some good things out of life. The equation that I felt adults were pushing onto me was:

"You can't have ____________ until you fix ________________ about yourself."

This equation isn't always true. Sometimes it's possible to temporarily leapfrog over some self-improvement steps. It IS possible to get good things in life & work on self-improvement along the way.

Peace, blessings & solidarity.

LISA VAZQUEZ said...

Welcome Khadija!

I am so deeply appreciative of your sharing and I am truly moved by your honesty.

Thank you for being compassionate towards our sistas who may be "listening in" with their filters intact. I will remember that we do have those who regularly "eavesdrop". And they are very WELCOME to do so!

I believe I should always welcome constructive critique of my motives and examination of my delivery. It causes me to be more reflective as an orator. It also causes me to be more precise with my words to avoid contamination and conjecture.

Surely you know, comrade, that you are one of the reasons why I opened the comments section of this blog! *lol*

I thank you for being a valued contributor to this blog community, and to my personal growth.

"Iron sharpens iron"!

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

LISA VAZQUEZ said...

Welcome ThePrivyChairLady!

Thanks so much for dropping by my neighborhood!

It is a blessing to have you here!

Continue sharing!

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

Miriam said...

I just wanted to add: re: black women needing validation.

Even though it shouldn't be, I think its important to understand that it does exist, and to somehow use it for BW's benefit as it gets phased out (hopefully).

TLW said...

If I offend anybody then I apologize in advance but I have to ask something. I have a hard time understanding how a Black person can express concern for the state of the Black family but then promote an interracial relationship/family. How does that help the state of the Black family?

Anxious Black Woman said...

Another good conversation started! Sorry I'm late to the discussion.

I grew up with a mother, who was traumatized by my abusive father, but fortunately, he was out of our lives when I was still a toddler. Then, in my early childhood, my mother sent me to live with my aunt in the Caribbean, who was a strict Jehovah's Witness. When I was 11, I escaped an attempted rape, thanks to the efforts of my male cousins, who ganged up on my would-be perpetrator (Ah! the so-called innocent play of schoolchildren!). I instinctively knew to be ashamed about this and didn't want them to say anything, but one of my cousins told my aunt, who in turn wanted to know what I had done to cause the near-rape!!

Lesson learned. I internalized alot and found refuge in a sort of sexual prudery that good Christian girls could find.

And then I went to college and slowly came out of my shell when I started dating. Eventually, I grew up, developed a different attitude about my body and my sexuality. Feminist thinking helped as did these two texts: Alice Walker's The Color Purple and Audre Lorde's "Uses of the Erotic: The Erotic as Power."

So, when I think of sexual ethics, I always think of my sexual autonomy and whether or not I can find this "erotic" satisfaction, not just in the physical realm and my social interactions but also in the spiritual and intellectual realm as well.

It's something I still ponder and struggle through, especially as a single black woman in my mid-thirties. I'm still single because, like khadija said, I'm concerned less about "lack of fish in the sea" and more about "the polluted waters" that have already contaminated all the fish - whether there is a good supply or not, whether the fish is a trout or salmon (I find the interracial relationship conversation - which I've also done and which I don't find too much in the difference between black and white men; they're both socialized to view heterosexual relationships in the exact same way).

I've been disappointed that the fish have become toxic and want to work towards purifying the water.

What can I say? I'm a dreamer still, and all the scare tactics - making me feel that I should settle down with any available "fish" since this is better than letting my biological clock run out - have not made me give up my sexual values, which are akin to the 5 characteristics you've laid out, Lisa.

LISA VAZQUEZ said...

Welcome Miriam!
Welcome TLW!
Welcome Anxious Black Woman!

Thanks so much for joining in this discussion! It's great that you've helped add to the stew! This is a tasty meal on the table!

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

Khadija said...

@TLW:

I don't know if this answers your question, but here's my answer (and I'm speaking only for myself):

I'm no longer 'expressing concern for the state of the Black family.' Because, in general, there is no Black family to be concerned about.

The Black masses are 'shacking.' The Black masses are having a majority of children out of wedlock. The Black masses are engaged in serial relationships. The masses of Black folks are not forming actual, stable families. We're living as disjointed pieces of families. We all know the relevant statistics; and see these numbers played out all around us.

The Black family is essentially dead & gone. It's been gone for about a generation now. Now, I do care about the handful of Black families that continue to exist. I would like to see the remaining ones prosper & flourish. But I can't focus my energy on the exceptions to what has become the rule in the Black community.

My concern is now focused on Black women & the children they are raising alone (for the most part).

Since Black men are 'on their own program' and doing a variety of things that are not conducive to forming Black families, it's time for Black women to save our own lives, minds, & spirits.

I'm not saying that Black men are solely, or even mostly, responsible for the death of the Black family. I'm saying that Black men generally don't take Black women or the state of the mythical Black family into account when deciding what to do in their lives. They are looking out for what they perceive to be their own individual interests.

I believe Black women need to stop waiting for them. The status quo of Black women's lives is NOT acceptable. Black women & children deserve a better quality of life. If there are not enough Black men willing & able to participate in providing a decent family life, then it's time to move on. And find others who will take up this slack.

I'm not offended by respectful questions. I prefer open, honest dialogue as opposed to a false consensus where people are silently seething inside. I learn a lot from open discussions. Sometimes I learn that I'm the one in error!

Peace, blessings & solidarity.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

In terms of thinking about "the black family," I think about black men and women as units within a "family," the community of black people.

What I'm seeing is that more and more black women as units within that community of black people are having children but not in families in the traditional sense, and that is a recent norm.

Some would say this isn't a problem. But like Khadija, I don't buy it. It is a problem. Why did this happen? How to fix? Any solutions would require a serious community-wide undertaking from the ground up, involving men as well as women.

But as I said earlier, not many think this is a problem. As Khadija suggested, this does not seem to be an issue for men in the "family" as much as for the women.

I don't hear men talking about raising children alone, or talking about an interest in marrying in the face of a high rate of singleness.

Instead, I hear women talking about it, and they are either being blamed for what is outside of their control--obvious imbalances, ie., larger numbers of women than men, or they are being told that there is no problem, they are not looking hard enough, or they should be content to be single. The Soulmate movement applies here.

Too many black women in my mind are being boxed in as a result, or the put themselves into contortions trying to reach what for many is next to impossible.

This is unreasonable in my view. Why should they remain in boxes and try turning into Houdini, for the sake of finding a black man? Time is precious. Why limit themselves in the face of odds which are stacked against them? Why not expand their options?

Anxious Black Woman said...

"I have a hard time understanding how a Black person can express concern for the state of the Black family but then promote an interracial relationship/family. How does that help the state of the Black family?"

So, if there are not enough black men for black women (and the numbers show that there aren't), would you rather a black woman remain unpartnered with no children than to find a viable partner outside the black community?

Seriously, how does a 70% unmarried black female rate help the state of the black family?

When a disproportionate number of successful, educated, attractive black women can't find partners like their non-black partners, and when low-income black women are treated like "baby mamas," something is seriously seriously wrong!

On both ends of the spectrum, we are receiving the message that, either way, we are not considered "marriageable" partners for either black men or other men.

This isn't to say that black women won't find suitable partners, but too many of us don't. And that's a problem either way you look at it, because it means that - even in the realm of our intimate relationships - this has to turn into a Herculean task.

At this rate, we'd have a higher chance of becoming Secretary of State or a media mogul than we would just becoming someone's wife - a mundane role that every other woman on this planet takes for granted that we can't.

That's a serious problem, and it's time we stop putting all the blame on black women and what we are doing wrong.

I'm telling you: polluted waters, polluted waters. We can go fishing all day and put all our efforts in catching the biggest fish, but we are casting our nets in a filthy swamp!

Don't doubt for one minute that the powers that be fear us - black women - more than they will ever fear black men. When we persevere against the odds, graduate from high school and college at much higher rates than our male counterparts, and achieve success oftentimes without the benefit of a husband or father in our lives (which very few non-black women are able to do), it signals to the ruling patriarchs that we are a fierce, fierce group of women who could easily challenge their power. So, what happens? Our very bodies are targeted to prevent our coming into full power: hypersexualization of our image, the undermining of our self-esteem by continuously placing all of women's values on her looks and beauty (of which white supremacy keeps telling us: "you ain't it, miss thang!") and constantly telling us that "you, strong black woman, are overstepping the boundaries! Submit! Submit to the power of a man" (both churches and popular culture keep putting this message out).

And wouldn't you know: the major crises affecting black women as a group - HIV/AIDS pandemic, rise in STDs, incarcerations, domestic and sexual violence - EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THESE ISSUES is based on some black woman "submitting to the power of a man." EVERY SINGLE ONE!

And those of us who have been able to achieve what we have, as single black women, are now being told: "Oh, poor you! Tsk, tsk. You're without a man! How tragic must your life be!" (It's simply Victorian this attitude - why are we not exploring alternative ways of living, in the midst of these crises and higher single status and divorce rates?).

When we look at our situation in a larger context, how can we begin to 1)feel good and confident in ourselves - whether single or married and 2)create a sexual ethic that will govern our approaches to living a fulfilling life with or without a man?

Because, if the goal becomes finding or settling for a man because they are "so hard to find," we will become just another divorce statistic, which also has ridiculously high numbers.

I find it highly interesting that few people are talking about a larger trend in general. In our country, there are more single people than ever before, and it's now 50/50 that marriages will last.

We, as black women, just have to have it worse than other groups of women because of that pesky little thing called racism that makes gender issues ten times worse for us.

Khadija said...

@PVW:

{Waving excitedly} Speak!! Especially the part about Black women putting 'themselves into contortions' trying to beat the odds in Houdini fashion: with both hands tied behind their backs & blindfolded.

As you noted, resurrecting the Black family would take a community-wide intervention. But I'm beginning to question the existence of an actual community. 'Community' implies that the people referenced are mutually supportive & have shared goals.

What we have are Black residential neighborhoods, not functioning communities. There are masses of Black people often segregated together due to poverty, redlining, etc. But I don't see a community. A functioning community is like a family living in a home. Black neighborhoods function more like strangers grouped together in the same hotel.

Just as there is no Black family, there is no Black community. I would like to see these things resurrected, but I can't wait for that to happen. Black women & children are being mugged in the neighborhood 'hotels.' Black women & children have to be rescued by being taught how to save their own lives & spirits.

That's why I was excited about the support group's production of the For Colored Girls play you described in your recent post! [Which I suggest that everyone check out.]
________________________________
@Miriam:

I think you're right---we need to find ways to use whatever 'validation' we have for Black women's benefit while we work to phase out praising inappropriate sources of validation.

Since I don't have a master plan to address that, I do what I can in the meanwhile. I use whatever influence I have to promote other ways of thinking & looking at things. Since my eyes popped open last fall, I've been evangelizing every woman & girl around me to look out for their OWN interests FIRST. And stop putting other people's interests [usually guys, but vampire relatives also fit into this category] ahead of their own.

For example, once I opened my eyes, it has amazed me to see how many hard-working Black women are financially supporting at least one deadbeat relative [typically adult males---Black women usually won't let female relatives sleep on their couches or in the basement]. And only Black women do this, for the most part. Black men generally don't allow their deadbeat male cousins, brothers, nephews, etc. move into their homes to leech off of them. This has to stop.
__________________________________

@Anxious Black Woman: I don't have any master plan for 'purifying the stream.' But I do know that part of the answer is to stop producing girls/young women who help to keep it polluted. To stop producing girls/young women like my high school best friend who make themselves available to be exploited. And thereby worsen the marriage market for non-groupie women. [I believe in the effects of supply & demand when it comes to relationships! LOL!]

Somebody [err...I guess that would be some of us...] needs to work with Black girls & young women to lift their spirits so they don't enlist into the "Booty Call Corps."
I'm looking into the Girls Circle program. It a nationwide model of facilitated support groups for girls ages 9-13. More information can be found at their website, www.girlscircle.com.
__________________________________

{Loud clapping}A round of applause for our "hostess with the most-ess" Rev. Lisa, for raising this issue!

And a heartfelt "thank you" to everybody that has been kind enough to share their thoughts & questions.

Peace, blessings & solidarity.

TLW said...

I'd like to thank you guys for answering my question and if you don't mind I would like to ask one more question. What do you guys think the future has in store for Black people in America if these damaging trends continue?

TLW said...

Oh shoot. I also meant to ask you guys when do you think these damaging trends in the Black community began.

I really hope you guys don't mind my questions. This topic means very much to me.

Khadija said...

@TLW:

I don't mind questions at all. Please feel free to add your own input.

1-We have completed about 75% of the process of becoming a permanent underclass population. We will be begging & pleading with Latino & Asian political overlords the same way we've been pleading with White political overlords.

These new overlords will have less reason to respond to our sob story appeals because they are not part of our historical narrative in terms of slavery, Jim Crow, etc. Consequently, they don't feel any obligation whatsoever to us.

They will allow us to continue to stage our own mini-Rwandas, as long as we keep the violence & death restricted to our 'quarantine zones'....err...our segregated Black neighborhoods.
_________________________________
2-My parents & other older relatives say that these destructive trends got started in the 1960s.

Our political activists choosing to paint ALL Black prisoners as political prisoners. Instead of recognizing that many are petty, common criminals. Black folks adopting more aspects of White culture [materialism, individualism, sexual permissiveness, etc.]. The decline of Black marriages around the same time that Black folks screamed at Patrick Moynihan for pointing this out.

The freedom to abandon segregated Black businesses & give our money to others. Black men's freedom to socially abandon Black folks in order to bed & marry White women. [By the way, I'm convinced that many Black male civil rights activists were motivated by a desire to have increased access to White women. The Harry Belafonte-types of the civil rights movement.]
_________________________________
3-A wise Anonymous commenter over at FocusedPurpose's blog pointed out that unlike the Israelites in the Bible, when Black folks got to what we thought was the 'promised land' of integration, all of our leaders were dead. There was nobody alive left to tell us how to conduct ourselves in the 'promised land.'

Anonymous said that because of this, we abandoned the God (and His ways) that got us through slavery & Jim Crow, picked up the ways of others, and we are now reaping the negative consequences.

I agree.

Peace, blessings & solidarity.

LISA VAZQUEZ said...

Welcome ladies!

Thanks for adding so much to this dialogue!

Keep on speaking truth to power! {raised fist}

Lisa
___________________________

Welcome Anxious Black Woman!

My question for you is this:
Is there ANYTHING that black women are doing that cause "others" (whoever that may be) to decide that black women are not marriageable?

I heard this conversation on another blog and I don't understand WHAT "others" point to in order to arrive at that conclusion.

You said:
"Submit! Submit to the power of a man" (both churches and popular culture keep putting this message out).

I hear this C-O-N-S-T-A-N-T-L-Y in the church construct. I am the only woman in the entire denomination who is always in trouble for not being submissive.

The term in the church for a woman who is not submissive is: "OUT OF ORDER"!

Church sistas, you know I am telling the truth. *LOL*

The head of our denomination (who is my mentor) asked me point blank if I felt I was incapable of being under submission. (I actually had to PAUSE for a while and really think about it! *LOL*)

My answer: "Are you asking if I am incapable of submitting to God? Or are you asking if I am incapable of submitting to YOU?"

The reason I mention this issue is because what we believe about WHO has power and HOW they can exercise that power directly impacts our sexual ethics.

Thanks for your sharing! (smiles)
Lisa
_____________________________

@ All of the ladies here

Ask yourself:

Which constructs am I part of?

What power keeps those constructs functioning?

What is my role in the power channel of the constructs that I am part of?

Who defines my role?

How do I navigate power in my relationships - in every sphere where I operate in?

Who and what has power over me right now? And how to I submit to that power?


We have to think it all through and understand the influences of those answers on our sexual ethics.

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

Anxious Black Woman said...

"Is there ANYTHING that black women are doing that cause 'others' (whoever that may be) to decide that black women are not marriageable?"

That's a good question. You know, I honestly think that - just like we have our own personal histories (including personal traumas) that might shape our sexual interactions and ethics, so too - I believe - do our collective histories bear on this. I think, from generation to generation (because African AMERICAN women, it seems, compared to other women in the diaspora are facing this "marriage crisis") black women have been raised to view non-black men (especially white ones) as potential predators, rapists, oppressors, fetishists, and the like while we have viewed black men as our only eligible pool. Other men - Asians, Arabs, etc. - don't even enter our radar (and I didn't realize this until one time, the uncle of an Egyptian student of mine asked me out for coffee during a graduation reception). Nothing really developed from this because he wasn't local, but just doing the casual dating - coffee, lunch, etc. - made me realize that NEVER in a million years would I have thought such men (non-black and non-white) would be looking at us.

But no sooner did I do coffee than my black girlfriends started warning me that Middle Eastern men are worse than white men when it comes to fetishizing us. So, I found myself completely resisting any deeper involvement, so when he left my area, I immediately viewed it as only inevitable.

Would I have been non-marriageable to such a person? After all, in other ethnic groups, many still preach in-group marriage and such. So, interestingly, white men are probably even more open to interracial relationships with us than other non-black men.

I just think that, as black women, because of our deep historically traumatic wounds (and we've never, as a collective group, really come together to have a national therapy session about the truly Holocaustic effect of rape-as-inheritance passed down from our ancestors because that historical experience, combined with our own personal traumas) we have created various defense mechanisms.

So, more than any other group of women, we've had to develop an independent stance, for we never were able to depend on our own men as "protectors" and we have an immediate suspicion that all other "outside" men are our potential rapists.

Now that black men have abandoned us in one way or another (not necessarily through IR marriages with non-black women but just in general) I think many of us are in a bind. There is no protection for us, and since we haven't dealt with our own wounds - historical and personal - I think we have created defense mechanisms that might make us seem "high maintenance," as much stereotyping deems us.

Then there is the other piece: we don't immediately come to mind as "trophy" wives (white women) or "exotic" submissive brides (Asian women), if someone were looking for a "marriageable" partner through this stereotyping. Not that this is something to aspire to.

But, we can nitpick and say, this is what black women are doing to ourselves. At the end of the day, you can nitpick and miss the bigger picture in which racism and misogyny combined has created an environment in which we are being abandoned, exploited, abused, and overlooked.

After all, why is it that we are doing something wrong?

What did Condoleeza Rice do wrong that she never married? (compare her to Madeleine Albright, who despite her unattractive appearance was still married with children).

What did Tyra Banks or Naomi Campbell do wrong that they never married? (We won't get into personalities here because high-strung diva-like personalities have never been a barrier to non-black supermodels finding a husband).

Someone like Halle Berry, considered one of the most beautiful black women in Hollywood, did get married, but her abusive marriages didn't last and now, with her new beau, she has no intention to since she's officially turned off. Again, what did she do wrong?

What does it mean to ask what black women are doing to cause this 70% unmarried rate, yet when we look at equally high numbers of black men in prison, we don't go: what did black men do wrong and how can they change their behavior to combat this horrendous prison epidemic?

You want to know WHY we don't ask what did black men do wrong to be filling up our prisons? Because, the high numbers ALONE preclude us from looking at the problem as an issue of individual choices. We are clear that there is something completely unfair, unjust, and downright racist in the criminal justice system for the numbers of men of color in prison to be so high.

Yet, when we talk about a 70% non-marriage rate for black women, we want to act like this is based on our individual choices. Where is the cultural, social, and structural accountability for this state of affairs?

When I shared these statistics to my aunt in the Caribbean, she immediately shook her head and said: "Wow, American men must have serious issues with black women."

Notice she didn't say we're the ones with the serious issues.

This could all be so depressing, but despite these statistics and my navigating my way through the perils of dating - both interracial and intraracial - knowing that I've been far more career-oriented than marriage-minded, even while maintaining my sexual ethics and discovering that not all potential partners hold the same values, thus presenting a whole different set of obstacles, I'm also working hard not to internalize that there is something wrong with me as a black woman.

There is nothing wrong with us, okay? There is something wrong with a society that is racist and misogynistic, and the offshoot of such a society is that those of us who are not white and not men will be devalued, hence there's a reason for our defense mode to begin with, and if we don't acknowledge that there are systemic reasons for our state of affairs, then the easier it is to succumb to negative messages or "submit to the power of a man."

Sharifa said...

(I'm not sure if you're still taking responses) Wow. Y'all are really getting deep in here. I agree with a lot of the comments that were made, especially Khadija's about not negating the reality of the difficult situation we single sisters are in despite the happy unions of a few of us, and the shape our 'community'/hotel is in.

To your original questions about who I am, and where my moral/sexual ethic code comes from? I feel I'm at a cross roads or something right now. Maybe this is part of turning 30 soon, but I feel like I need to define or redefine some assuptions I've gone on for my whole life; mostly due to recent church drama (and just the general sad state of affairs).

I guess I would fall into the 'good-girl' side of the good-girl/bad girl [false?] dichotomy. I've pretty much done what I was 'supposed' to do as far as behavior, and am probably a bit of a prude. I think I was just a true believer; I believed in what the church taught, and assumed for a while that other people were at least trying to live according to the same moral code. I've tried to live up to a moral code that I was taught (often more implicitly, that explicity, actually), but that I held to also because I thought it was right, only to get older, get sick of waiting for certain things, and look around me and see that others didn't take those ideas so seriously. Whether they be about premarital sex, or just how to treat other people/behave. I've seen so much of how black women's labor (time, talents, commitment, money, etc) are getting pimped by the male powers that [we let] be in the church, and it's all become so disgusting to me. Now, I'm trying to reevaluate what I believe in light of the fact that I may be more alone on this path than I initallly thought or feel comfortable with. I guess I can't help but feel cheated. I guess no one promised me a rose garden, but I just expected that if I did the right thing, good would come to me.

Couple this with the fear and distain I feel about the state of black women and the 'community' as a whole; these blogs came along at the best time, because I was really hurting for conversations like these and proposed solutions.

I guess this answer is all over the place, but to answer your other questions (as best I can as I understand them):

Which constructs am I part of?
-I think I'm currently part of a construct that tells me I'm supposed to just go along with the status quo, just give up, give up my power, be satisfied with crumbs and skip toward my own destruction. And it's this I'm sick of.

What power keeps those constructs functioning?
The fact that I haven't fought hard enough against them, or left them if the fighting proves futile.


What is my role in the power channel of the constructs that I am part of?
To try to be the voice of dissent?

Who defines my role?
50% me and 50% other people who exercise some form of power over me?

How do I navigate power in my relationships - in every sphere where I operate in?


Who and what has power over me right now? And how to I submit to that power?
-My fears, my family's perception, my perceived loyalties and limitations; people who I don't seem to have the power to persuade; people to whom I am more commited than they are to me.

Anyway, that's my scattered answer, after working 16 hours with no sleep =)

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Rev. Lisa,

Once again, you have hit it out of the ball park!

Your comment:


My question for you is this:
Is there ANYTHING that black women are doing that cause "others" (whoever that may be) to decide that black women are not marriageable?

My reply:

I'll add on to ABW's response. I agree, there is nothing black women are doing.

Instead, it is important to think about some various items. Black women's historical strengths, which have been necessary for our survival, have always been used against us, as proof we are unworthy and unfeminine, when, as ABW reminds us, those constructs were created by others for their own purposes and to disempower us.

Because many black men wanted to be like white men, patriarchs, they criticized our historical strengths, especially by the black nationalist period of the late 1960s, that our strengths emasculated them.

So they all got it in for us!

White women benefited from the hierarchy, because we could always be their subordinates as they remained the primary women in demand, and the bulwark of white supremacy. Women have the kids. Which women are seen as more desirable for marriage and family. So the social constructs all operate for them to be the mothers of the (white) nation.

Something else that matter is that white people are free to be individuals; we are grouped. So when the stereotypes of a few are purveyed, they are seen to represent all of us, which diminishes our collective value. White people feel no need to identify with and claim the "knuckleheads" in their group. But the way images are purveyed, white "knuckleheads" don't exist, or they are excused for their behavior.

The black knuckleheads, well they represent us all, and so we have to constantly deal with others presuming that we are others want to see us as.

Your other question, I'll have to think about it some more. It is pretty deep.

Which constructs am I part of?

What power keeps those constructs functioning?

What is my role in the power channel of the constructs that I am part of?

Who defines my role?

How do I navigate power in my relationships - in every sphere where I operate in?

Who and what has power over me right now? And how to I submit to that power?

We have to think it all through and understand the influences of those answers on our sexual ethics.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

I'm back...


Which constructs am I part of?


I am a part of a construct of a long line of race-and-gender women as a part of black female intellectual history.

What power keeps those constructs functioning?

Our efforts, our words, our refusal not to be race-and-gender women.

What is my role in the power channel of the constructs that I am part of?

To teach, research and write with a dedication to discussing race-and-gender always!

Who defines my role?

I do.

How do I navigate power in my relationships - in every sphere where I operate in?

I navigate it by finding allies who can help me and by doing my job well.

Who and what has power over me right now? And how to I submit to that power?

Power over me--hiring committees? Tenure committees?

We have to think it all through and understand the influences of those answers on our sexual ethics.

I don't feel powerless in the realm of sexual ethics in my marriage, so I had a different take on the questions....

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Our efforts, our words, our refusal not to be race-and-gender women.

A typo:

Our efforts, our words, our insistence on being race-and-gender women.

Khadija said...

Lisa asked "is there ANYTHING that Black women are doing that cause 'others' (whoever that may be) to decide that Black women are not marriageable?"

I feel that this situation is similar to asking why Black folks generally don't patronize Black businesses. Yes, there are plenty of things genuinely wrong with plenty of Black businesses. Too many of them are dirty, give rude treatment to customers, etc. However, these faults are not the real reasons why Black folks don't support Black businesses. After all, we readily support equally dirty & rude Arab & Korean-owned businesses.

There are plenty of things that too many Black women are doing that lowers our value & helps feed the perception that we are not worth marrying. But that's not what's driving this phenomenon. The faults displayed by many Black women are the same faults displayed by other races of women---who are still able to marry.

I co-sign Anxious Black Woman's answer. When the percentages get that far off-kilter, there's something more than individual failures causing it. As she noted, there are cultural, social, & structural factors causing this.

However, cultural, social & structural factors are at the macro level. I believe that there are things that individual Black women do (sometimes inadvertently) that decrease their individual personal odds of marriage. And decrease the odds of one's marriage enduring. These are micro issues. There are things that I tell younger women who ask me about these matters.

Let me also add that I'm not saying any of this presuming that I'm some kind of guru or have mastered these concepts. My ex could give a long dissertation about "What's wrong with Khadija" to anyone who asked him. And some of it would be true! :) I'm just speaking from what I've learned by watching & listening to people.

SEVERAL EASY & ACCIDENTAL STEPS FOR AVOIDING MARRIAGE--Please note that none of these mistakes prevent non-Black women from getting married:

1-No serious planning/plotting to have such a relationship. This is not our parents' generation where marriage just flowed naturally from dating. I've noticed that other races of women consciously & deliberately strategize on getting married. For example, my (male) Korean personal trainer often 'joked' about how in South Korea the women go to college to get "their M.R.S. degree." After watching & talking to several female Korean colleagues I discovered that he wasn't really joking.

Black women often float through college & grad school without really being focused on 'landing' a husband. And it seems to me that these are the prime years for finding someone. It gets harder as you get older for a variety of reasons.

2-Being willing to 'shack up' with someone instead of marriage. 'Nuff said about that.

3-Being willing to waste years 'dating' someone without any forward momentum towards marriage. To my way of thinking, it takes about a year or 1.5 years to really get to know someone. To have seen them in enough different contexts to see what they're about. I've always felt that women who invested 3-plus years in dating someone were usually wasting their time.

Guys will let a relationship drift aimlessly & string women along without commitment for as long as they can get away with it. These extra years are time that could be spent finding someone who really wants to get married. Exhibit #1: Oprah. 'Nuff said about that.

4-Having sex WAY too early in the relationship. To my way of thinking, if the goal with a guy is marriage any pre-marital sex should probably wait until AFTER you are wearing an engagement ring. The engagement ring represents a public declaration of intent to get married. Which increases the odds of it actually happening.

5-Not understanding that casual sex = no real prospects of marriage to the guy you're having casual sex with. And possibly no real prospects of marriage to anyone he mentions you to.

6a-Not understanding that women still have to guard their 'reputations.' We really haven't come a long way, baby.

6b-Not understanding that a woman has to have a plan as to how she's going to maintain her reputation if she's going to engage in casual sex. Not understanding that every effort must be made to make any casual sex a covert operation that can't be traced back to one's social reputation. This is similar to the idea of "Don't piss where you have to eat."

This sort of plotting was one of my preoccupations during college. I decided that respectable relationships were the only sort of relationships I would engage in with guys who were within my natural social circle.

7-Not understanding that there's a difference between a woman wanting to be married & actually wanting to function as a wife.

I need to think about the other questions that were asked.

Peace, blessings & solidarity.

SheCodes said...

Wow. It took me an hour to read through all of the comments.

I am glad that I have decided to refrain from posting every day, because I found that I didn't have the time to engage in conversations like this when I did.

To answer your questions...

First, let me say that my father says that the first word I ever uttered was a very loud, and very authoritative "NO!" I then went on to have the worst case of the "no's" that he has ever seen before or since in a toddler.

I have since learned that all children have this phase in some form, and it is indicative of the establishment of their independence and their own will. Therefore, I came into this world declaring my own independence, and that has never changed or wavered.

I separate Christianity from spirituality. However, I am both a Christian and I am spiritual.

To complicate things, my morals and values come from neither my faith, nor my spirituality. I am what is called a rational Christian thinker, and I have to understand and vigorously question the logic of a principle before I embrace it.

This is as true for my sexuality as it is for all of the other aspects of my life.

I am a celibate woman, not because Jesus told me to be one, not because I was raised to be a good girl, and not because I am a prude.

I made this choice because I refuse to divorce my body from my heart and soul, and any man who does not want all of me will not be permitted to take part of me, just to discard the rest.

I made this choice because I am not willing to take any risk of pregnancy with someone who would not consider me for a wife.

I made this choice because there are other, (and more surefire), options to get that "O".

I made this choice because I know myself: I am a fully integrated woman -- therefore my feelings follow where my body does, and vice versa. I am not willing to change that.

I made this choice as a young woman, after observing the bloody, abandoned sexual battlefield, littered with the destroyed hopes, broken hearts, and stripped life opportunities of black women everywhere... I saw my friends being plowed, consumed, and abandoned without an ounce of regret or remorse.

I made this choice because no matter WHAT people say, women will always foot the bill for sexual choices. And I don't want to pay right now.

This does not mean that I think that sex is dirty or wrong or disgusting or shameful. It does not mean that I am frigid or man-hating or a closet lesbian or sexually repressed.

It means that I have weighed all of my options and made a very difficult choice, one that I understand that not everyone can make.

Enough on that...

_______________________________


I wholeheartedly agree with the 'polluted stream' observations, and will submit that unfortunately we are also fish coming from that same stream.

It is one of the reasons that I have elected to remain a spiritual person, because faith is the only thing that I have ever seen truly transform someone into a being that they were not before.

I approach faith as an intellectual, knowing that if it is all hogwash, then I have lost nothing -- but if it is real, I just might become a new, unpolluted creature.

Anxious Black Woman said...

Those are really good points, Khadija! And I know I've been guilty of point #1 - not planning and strategizing for my "M.R.S." degree along with the other three degrees I have.

And while you are correct with the points about casual sex/shacking-up/dating-too-long/sex-too-early, I think there's another subset of issues for the sexually conservative woman, who also needs a set of strategies to find marriage.

For black women, who are having sex-too-late or not at all, they have their own particular challenges. I know a number of black Christian women who are either celibate or mature virgins, and they are beside themselves because they can't find compatible partners who don't label them a different kind of "freak" for not fully participating in our sex culture.

This is where things get tricky for us as black women, for the casual-sex white girl can still get married and gloat about her "wild years" as proof of her sexual liberation. Personally, I think black women have GOT to develop the same shameless attitude and tell all the chauvinist men who "ruin their reputation" to shove it and get with the 21st century.

And the "good girls" who don't want to engage in premarital sex are also going to have to strategize to turn their "virtue" into something sexy and endearing, rather than old-fashioned and dorky.

Again, Khadija, these are all good points. My issue with these points is that, as you said, non-black women commit the same mistakes and are still able to marry.

I think we have to address how racism has colored the sexual landscape and placed us at a disadvantage. How can we build our confidence to be the women we want to be while also "marketing" ourselves (I'm thinking of an author who wrote a book about how she took her business skills from Harvard Business School to apply them to finding a husband) for marriage - IF marriage is what we want.

Your last point, Khadija, is a huge issue for why I'm still single, for while I would eventually like to do the marriage thing and the motherhood thing, I also bristle at being a wife. Ugh! Just cannot see myself doing drudgery or glorified housework. HATE!

For me, I already know that I cannot be a traditional wife, so on top of the small pool of eligible men, I have to find someone who is not looking for such a woman.

So, three things:

1. What are positive traits about being BLACK WOMEN can we identify as a group that we should start promoting about ourselves to increase our "marriage value"? (See Lisa? I told you sex is a capitalist scheme and that the prostitutes you encountered are not way off base!)

2. What are positive traits about our individual selves that we can accentuate?

3. What is it that we really want in a partner, where would we find such a partner, and how do we set the terms in the relationship (sex-too-soon or sex-too-late/after-marriage is still a woman's prerogative; it should be her goal to make sex and sexuality work for her)?

Seeing that I'm still single, I too am no expert, but I do think if we have this discussion, we can start working towards achieving our goals.

Finally, I have to say this because, again, as black women, we have a unique set of issues. The reason why other races of women can prioritize for their M.R.S. degree is purely economical (which of course gets camouflaged as romance, love, and social expectations). They prioritize because, when men still have more earning power than women, it's an advantage to find a well-earning man who's going to contribute considerably to your own income and who can help considerably in the economic support of any children you hope to have.

How many of us, as black women, can even look at black men with the same eye of earning potential when, more often than not, we ARE that earning potential?

We have alot of soul searching to do about what is it about marriage that is so attractive to us, and how we can redefine families and communities, because it is the 21st century. We ARE going through a major upheaval in the sexual landscape, and if we want to have children to keep our future generations going, either we're going to do it through traditional marriage, without benefit of marriage, or through a whole new definition of family and community. Something we need to discuss and have a vision for.

Khadija said...

Continued from above...I see that most of my above comments are related to blunders made during courtship prior to marriage. Now I'll try to focus more on blunders made during marriage (although many of these mistakes overlap). Although, as I said before, these 'blunders' are NOT what's driving the phenomenon of no-marriage among Blacks. And, let me also emphasize that Black women are held to more harsh consequences than non-Black women.

SEVERAL EASY & ACCIDENTAL STEPS FOR PUTTING FATAL STRESS ON YOUR MARRIAGE--Please note that none of these blunders automatically destroy non-Black women's marriages:

1a-Trying to renegotiate the basis/foundation of your marriage after getting married. This is similar to trying to renegotiate one's relationship halfway through. This generally doesn't work well for several reasons.

And this reminds me of the lectures the old-school men in my life (my father & older cousins) would give to me & my female cousins when we were teenagers.

1b-Lecture from Old School Dad & Cousins: "Stop trying to change things halfway through! Young ladies need to hold out for what they want BEFORE taking up with a man. You can't wake up one morning & decide that now you want some respect from a man. You have to get that upfront." *Note that in this context, 'taking up' meant serious courtship, NOT pre-marital sex [which was not contemplated by my old-school male relatives. At least not contemplated for young ladies in OUR family *Smile*].

1c-Lecture from Mom, Aunts & Granny: "Start things the way you want to finish them."

Translation into Modern Era: Don't think that you're going to be promoted from a 'jump off' to a wife. It's very difficult to move up in a man's eyes once you have lowered your value. However, it's very easy to move down in a man's estimation. Life is not fair & we really haven't come a long way, baby; this corresponds to comments #6a & 6b above.

2-What you did to get something is usually what you'll have to continue doing to keep it. If you stop doing whatever you originally did that attracted your spouse, there will be consequences. If you're doing something to attract your husband that you don't want to keep doing, you'll be deeply resentful during your marriage.

For example, a lot of my married friends started off their courtships demonstrating that they were 'domestic divas' that could whip up a Big Mama Sunday Dinner Platinum Class meal. That was the consistent standard of meal preparation that they established while courting. They never considered the stress of providing that almost every night. After a full day at work.

When they don't make such elaborate meals, their husbands are resentful. When they feel pressured into keeping up the Big Mama standard they unwittingly set for their homes, my friends are resentful.

Blunders #1 & 2 are often combined together to create a lot of mutual resentment & recriminations.

I know I was pissed off. And men do this sort of thing too. This combo was one of the underlying problems with my ex. He's essentially bored with clueless groupies. So he pursues & wins women who have their own interests. He then tries to pressure these women into becoming Stepford Wives, when that was NOT the expectation raised during courtship. He tried this & failed with ex-wife #1 [who is a doctor]. He tried this & failed with me.

To be honest, the warning signals about this 'bait & switch' routine were there. I chose to ignore them. I should've listened more closely to the emotional theme underlying his comments about ex-wife #1. But you see, I was excited about the idea of marriage, he's a very pretty man, & he's got skillz in bed. :) As FocusedPurpose has commented in other contexts, there are a lot of volunteers, not victims.

3-Being more interested in being married than performing at least some of the expected functions of a wife. There's work involved in maintaining a healthy marriage. 'Nuff said about that.

Now on to pondering Lisa's questions about 'constructs' etc....

Peace, blessings & solidarity.

Hagar's Daughter said...

Hi everyone,
I love this conversation. It is so important to have a plan for our lives. I learned this from my grandmother who told me that if I didn't have a plan and if I didn't follow through with it, I would grow old and bitter and resentful.

I was one who planned never to marry or have children. I never saw a marriage I wanted to emulate and never really saw the benefit of marriage. Well I did get married and 3 days afterward I felt I had made the biggest mistake of my life (it had nothing to do with my husband). I cried hysterically and wanted to "go home." I was afraid I was going to turn into all the "wives" I personally knew. The first couple of years were really difficult. Then I remembered Grandma's words of wisdom: You have to have a plan for your life, which I realized meant a plan for my marriage as well (don't know what took me so long to figure it out). But Khadija you are so right when you said that it takes hard work to maintain a healthy marriage and it also takes work to maintain a dysfunctional one too. Marriage is hard work people - LISTEN UP- even when you're a "good woman" married to a "good man" (however you define these).

Being single or being married are both wonderful it's a matter of being content and living fully. It's about having a plan and being willing to actually work your plan. It's a matter of defining the terms in which we will live ourlives. I had to define marriage for myself. I realized that I married my husband for companionship, but I had to come to grips with the fact that he is here all the time not just when I feel like having him around (I'm moody-he could tell you some things LOL). It feels good to know that I can count on him to have my back, to encourage me, and to believe in me even when I don't believe in myself. For someone else, she may say that she doesn't want to marry a "friend," but it is knowing what YOU want. Again, it's about having a plan and being content and fulfilled because one is not better than the other (marriage or being single).

Now this is just an opinion from a slightly middle-aged married person, and of course Anxious Black Woman, I'm no expert either. Just thought I would share a little of my own experience for what it's worth.

LISA VAZQUEZ said...

A big welcome to everyone who is moving this dialogue forward! {waves}

Welcome Sharifa!

Thanks for joining in this dialogue (in Comment Entry #35)! It’s great to have more voices in this important exchange.

This conversation is so compelling! It is precisely what must take place in order for black women to take the reigns and commandeer a new direction (without others deciding that they “should” do it for us).

Welcome Khadija!

You said (Comment Entry #26):

“I'm no longer 'expressing concern for the state of the Black family.' Because, in general, there is no Black family to be concerned about.”

And
“The Black family is essentially dead & gone. It's been gone for about a generation now.”

I disagree. I am not sure if you were using the term “black family” to mean the black collective. If you meant “black family” in the manner that I assumed you did, then I would ask you what your definition of a family is and if a “family” is only called one if it is representing hetero-normalcy.

There are many black lesbians who are raising children together and sharing in economic advancement for their families. There is very little media attention on this structure of the black family. There are a lot of disparaging statistics that tie into the sociological outcomes of the black household with an unmarried and un-partnerned black woman raising her children alone with one income. Those statistics do not parallel with the dynamics of TWO black women raising children together.

There are many black gay men who are raising children together and sharing in economic advancement for their families. There is very little media attention on this structure of the black family.

If we talk about the black family, we can’t define it solely in the context of hetero-normalcy (the traditional nuclear man/woman/their biological children type of structure).

You said:
“The status quo of Black women's lives is NOT acceptable.”

Please elaborate on this a bit more. What defines the “status quo”? How do we change the definition in the minds of black women of what SHOULD BE their “status quo”?

You mentioned (in Comment Entry #29) the upcoming chereo-poem (play), “For Colored Girls Who Have Considered Suicide When The Rainbow Is Enuf” and I wrote about this on April 8th in this post: For Divas Who Have Considered Suicide…. Many of us were much too young to see the production when it was popular in the 1970s. (It was not intended to be a production for little black girls so our parents didn’t take us. In the 1980s, many college campuses where putting on that production but so many of us where adolescents at that time – not women.)

You said (in Comment Entry #32):
“We have completed about 75% of the process of becoming a permanent underclass population.”

How can we help black women who are content to remain in the underclass understand that entire process?

How to we present a viable strategy that will REVERSE that process and ultimately eradicate the process so that it is not reactivated?


You made such an excellent observation (in Comment Entry #39 ) when you said:
“7-Not understanding that there's a difference between a woman wanting to be married & actually wanting to function as a wife.”

You said (in Comment Entry #42):
“3-Being more interested in being married than performing at least some of the expected functions of a wife.”

I don’t think that many of us even know what the FUNCTION of a wife is. I’m being honest. We don’t want to ask the married sistas because we think we are all supposed to instinctively know. When we haven’t defined what a wife is then we don’t know how to SHOW ourselves as being wife-material.

For example, I have never dated a man and THOUGHT that I had to show my domestic talents because any man who has conversed with me for more than 30 minutes realizes that I have no intention of being married to a man who can not provide financially for domestic help. I do not do laundry. I put dry-cleaning in the closet. I would not expect to cook any regular meals for the husband; I supervise the menus and meals prepared by the kitchen staff! *lol*!

I won't mind bringing him a beverage or preparing a light snack, however. If my husband wants a meal, he needs to press the intercom button on the wall and speak with the kitchen staff! That's how I envision things!

I don't have any issues with providing a husband with sexual intimacy by ardent request or by gracious invitation (provided I am interested in it at the time of the invitation or request) but I will not be the live-in breeder. I will not have children if there is no full-time nanny. PERIOD. Whether a full-time nanny must be hired for EACH child, I am willing to negotiate but there will be NO pregnancy in any marriage that i am a part of without the agreement that there will be a full-time, live-in nanny.

I went to school with white girls and their moms were training them for their “M.R.S. degrees” as girls and pre-teens so when they stepped into the undergraduate environment, they were not FORMULATING a plan to find/acquire husbands, they were prepared for in the execution phase! Can I say this for black women? NO. Guess what? So many of us pride ourselves in the “I don’t need a man” mentality that it has become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

My friend (a brotha) says, “Black men will not waste our time convincing black women that they NEED a man. If black women want to wave the “we don’t need you” banner, that’s fine, then they need not complain and get resentful when the black man chooses a woman from another race who WANTS and NEEDS a man.”

I have to admit that what he said was true.

If we (black women) DO want to marry black men then we need to immediately stop all of the “we don’t need a man” posturing.


Welcome Pioneer Valley Woman!
You said (Comment Entry #27) about black people having children but not in families in the traditional sense:

“Some would say this isn't a problem. But like Khadija, I don't buy it. It is a problem. Why did this happen? How to fix?”

I used to think that the problem was in the absence of the black man as nurturing, protective, affirming husband.

Now, I am re-thinking that assumption. I think that black women are so compelling in the family construct that if she chooses to become partnered, or to get pregnant before she has the emotional maturity to understand how to understand her power and how to correctly negotiate power in the relationships she is in, and if she enters into a relationship (presumed to be a healthy one) before she has properly defined her sexual ethics, there will STILL be dysfunction of epic proportions in her sphere.

It won’t matter if the man she marries is responsible, affirming, nurturing, loving, protective, focused, goal-achieving, disciplined, fiscally-productive and economically-astute…the household will be in shambles because in the black culture, the black woman is the core.

THE SOULMATE MOVEMENT
You mentioned the Soulmate Movement (in Comment Entry #27).

Will you elaborate on this and share WHY it has been disempowering for black women? Many black women are still actively advocating for the Soulmate Movement.

You asked a great question and I have wanted to create a post about this issue because it MUST be explored: “Why not expand their options?”

You said (in Comment Entry #36 ):
Something else that matter is that white people are free to be individuals; we are grouped.”

I have observed that many black people perpetuate this. Many black people (yes, black women too!) continually talk about all black women as “we think…” and “we do…” and I am sure that I have caught that and have started doing it too! Now, I want to stop doing it.

We seem to have passionately embraced this skewed self-perception that we are a monolithic group. We don’t call each other out about perpetuating that thinking as so it continues – to our own detriment – because that thinking diminishes the power of our mosaic as black people. It creates an “other” category for any black person who doesn’t reinforce the group self-perception. ENOUGH, I say!




Welcome Anxious Black Woman!

Thank you for addressing my question about WHY people are advancing the assumptions that black women are not suitable marital partners.

You said (in Comment Entry #34):
“…we have an immediate suspicion that all other "outside" men are our potential rapists.”

I was never taught to believe this but I have noticed that assumption is widespread in many circles I have been in with black women.

Who taught black women to believe this? Other black women? And what was the motive those “teachers” had in mind – to subjugate black women and cause them to become paranoid?

Who and what fuels this assumption right now in the black community?


You said (in Comment Entry #34):
“…NEVER in a million years would I have thought such men (non-black and non-white) would be looking at us.”

I have to ask again, WHO has put out this mentality? Are we going to put the blame solely on the brainwashing that has occurred through our intercourse with white supremacist structures? Or is there MORE that we haven’t examined? Perhaps that certain pathologies are being perpetuated by black people who don’t recognize them as pathologies?

In order for us to stop perpetuating a particular mentality, we must be shown that it is dysfunctional and detrimental. This has not occurred.

Thank you for your questions (in Comment Entry #41). I will think about them some more and respond after others have commented.

___________________________________

Welcome SheCodes!

Thanks so much for contributing (in Comment Entry #40)!

I am so thrilled to hear sistas speaking about their celibacy! Many sistas who are not having sex are not actually operating from a covenant with themselves about celibacy; they just aren’t having sex because at that particular time, they don’t have someone that they WANT to have sex with. They claim, “I’m celibate” but that’s not really what celibacy is.

There is a difference between a vow of celibacy and being in a sexual drought.

To all… thank you for “schooling” me! Keep sharing!
(smiles)
Lisa

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Rev. Lisa:

THE SOULMATE MOVEMENT
You mentioned the Soulmate Movement (in Comment Entry #27).

Will you elaborate on this and share WHY it has been disempowering for black women? Many black women are still actively advocating for the Soulmate Movement.

You asked a great question and I have wanted to create a post about this issue because it MUST be explored: “Why not expand their options?”

My reply:

I reject the Soulmate movement because it tries to act as though the abnormal is normal.

Large numbers of black women who want long term relationships (with black men) but who don't have them, are told to be courageous and forget about what is very natural human needs.

Instead, they are to accept the status quo and wear it as a badge of honor.

Is any other group of women on the planet being told this, or are they told to maximize their chances as individual women in the dating arena? I argue the latter.

Large numbers of black women are single, so make God your soulmate is the argument instead? Essence magazine runs articles like this on occasion.

Nothing on pursuing other options...or creating the optimal environment for finding a partner.

Granted, this relates to the discussion of black women being told we are not as desirable as other women, or believing that men of other groups can not respect us, because we know what "they" are like...

But do we really know "them," ie., from beyond what others tell us, or are we learning for ourselves?

On the other hand, we presume that black men are our natural allies and partners. But with such a high singleness rate and the carnage resulting from the dating/relationship arena, can we honestly say so?

Good men don't come in colors. They come in the qualities of their character.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Something else that matters, it's about being ruthless in identifying men who are compatible, fit our needs and are interested in the long term. Beyond that, jettison those who don't.

I recall a conversation I had at a college event, a brief interchange with young students, black as well as white. I was talking to a young black man about life at the college. I can't recall the full conversation, but I remember one thing he did say.

He said that many young women come to college for the M.R.S. I don't know whether he was speaking about young black women or women of other groups. In any event, they are looking for the M.R.S., but the young men are just looking to have fun.

I have seen young black women fall into that trap. They were thinking long-term, but they started dating men who indicated through their actions or whatever, that they were just about "fun," not being serious. So they got caught in the trap of sticking around and hoping, rather than finding what they really wanted.

Too many young men are spoiled, though. If a young woman is serious (what they call disparagingly "high maintenance,") they go on to someone else who is more easy-going and willing to
accept the "okey-doke."

This is what the imbalances create.

Khadija said...

My head is spinning from all of the excellent points made & questions raised by everybody. It's going to take me quite some time to think about all the things everyone said.

Shecodes: I salute your self-discipline & refusal to allow spiritual/emotional fragmentation into your life! So many of us lead compartmentalized, almost schizophrenic lives bouncing between our hearts, minds, souls, & bodies. {Raised fist}
_________________________________
Shecodes stated that "...no matter WHAT people say, women will always foot the bill for sexual choices."

Anxious Black Woman: I don't know if it's possible to turn this 'reputation' trickbag around on the chauvinists that keep it going. You also asked what collective positive traits about Black women can be marketed to increase our perceived marriage value. I don't know off hand. I think I need to do investigate what traits other non-White women are using to market themselves.

You are also correct in noting that "there's another subset of issues for the sexually conservative woman, who also needs a set of strategies to find marriage." I never thought about this angle before! And I get the feeling that these women are in a LOT of trouble if they're hoping to find someone from the church/mosque.

There's a series of YouTube videos from "Ask Alexyss" entitled "Church Predators." Apparently, there are a number of men who go to church to target single Christian women for sexual exploitation. It's gotten to the point that one of my friends has mentioned that her church created a no-dating rule for their singles ministry groups. As the woman in the "Ask Alexyss" video notes, a lot of women let their guards down with men they meet in churches/mosques. Warning to anyone who checks out "Ask Alexyss" on YouTube: She's vulgar & uses profanity.
__________________________________
Hagar's Daughter: There's no reason to blame yourself for not originally having a plan for your marriage. The landscape has shifted in the Black community. Even those of us who had older female relatives to advise us have still been taken by surprise by many of the changes. Some of the information our mothers, etc. told us became outdated.

Our mothers didn't need to have conscious plans for certain things. In their era, dating naturally led to courtship which naturally led to marriage. And there was a community-wide shared set of assumptions about how each member functions in a family.
_________________________________
Lisa: I laughed out loud in self-recognition with some of your comments. Espectially the statement "...I will not be the live-in breeder." Now, I'm willing to clean & do (some, not all) laundry. My issue is the cooking. LOL! I had specifically & repeatedly told the ex during our courtship that "I am NOT Suzie Homemaker." In response to some of your questions:

1-Yes, I'm referring to hetero-normalcy when I say "Black family." Currently, I only have one lesbian acquaintance (I'm sure I must have others that I'm not aware of, they just haven't come out to me). She's deeply closeted with her family & forces her partner to pretend that they are roommates when her relatives visit. Makes the woman move her stuff into the extra bedroom, etc. I don't know enough about what's going on with Black lesbians to have any comments about their rates of family formation, etc.

2-The "status quo" that I'm referring to are the negative statistics and Black women's general collective displeasure with the state of affairs reflected by the statistics.

3-You asked "How do we change the definition in the minds of black women of what SHOULD BE their 'status quo'?" I don't know. I have to think long & hard about this and other questions people have raised.

Lisa, it's my impression that the "I don't need no man" statements came AFTER Black men became unavailable, not before. It seems to me that this posture is a coping mechanism, like the Soulmate movement, to deal with the absence of marriage.

And I don't think that openly characterizing one's desire for marriage as a "need" is a good idea when dealing with Black men. "Need" sends a signal to some Black men that you are needy & therefore prey. Like the victimized church women that "Ask Alexyss" describes in her "Church Predators" videos. I think it's safer to characterize marriage as an important goal when talking to men, not as a "need."

About Black women's general lack of planning for the M.R.S. degree: My impression is that the Black women who came before us really didn't have to plan for marriage. It naturally flowed from dating & courtship. This was the community-wide shared assumption in their era. Most Black women were reasonably assured of a husband. The issue & uncertainty was about how to land the biggest 'catch' in terms of a husband.

For the most part, our mothers couldn't advise us to plot & strategize about the M.R.S. degree----because having to plot about something as mundane & basic as marriage was outside of their experience.
__________________________________
Pioneer Valley Woman: I 100% co-sign your comments regarding the Soulmate movement and how women have to be ruthless about not wasting time with men who are not compatible with their needs. Far too many women try to renegotiate things as I noted above. Which is time better spent finding someone who actually wants the same things in life that you want.

And I've seen GROWN, MATURE Black women throw themselves into the trap you described. They're too afraid to cut the Negroes loose who warn them upfront that they're only about 'fun & games.' These women figure that a 'piece of a man' is better than none at all. [How I hate that expression, 'piece of a man.']
_________________________________
{Loud clapping} A big round of applause for everyone. This conversation is extremely compelling & exactly what we need to discuss to chart a new path forward!

Peace, blessings & solidarity!

LISA VAZQUEZ said...

Welcome Hagar's Daughter!

You have made some compelling statements. I need to marinate in them for a while. Perhaps many sistas enter marriage with unrealistic expectations about the amount of investment that a solid lifelong relationship will require!

It seems that many women believe that if they marry the "right" man then the marriage will not take much work in order to work.

I know, I know...but that perception is common in the church circles I have been in.

(smiles)
Lisa
_________________________
Welcome Khadija!

I forgot to mention your famous quote:
Don't think that you're going to be promoted from a 'jump off' to a wife.

*LOL* I was on the floor laughing when I read that caveat!

We need to print bumper stickers with this quote and distribute them at the Essence Festival and as downloads on our blogs! *LOL*

_______________________________
Welcome Pioneer Valley Woman!

You said (in Comment Entry #45):
"Good men don't come in colors. They come in the qualities of their character."

We really MUST blow the trumpet on this point more often.

You said (in Comment Entry #46) that:
"...it's about being ruthless in identifying men who are compatible, fit our needs and are interested in the long term."

So true!

I don't think that many women understand that having high standards is in their best interests - and it's because they see so many women with low standards with a man (as if that is the prize).

Khadija mentioned a couple days ago that many black women are conditioned to believe that they must measure themselves based on whether or not they have a man. That statement was so jarring to me!

This discussion has really opened up my eyes!
And believe me - I am deeply grateful. (smiles)
Lisa
___________________________________
@ All married women

If you will, please give recommendations about how sexual ethics MUST change for black women when they are single and when they are married. It seems to me that the sexual ethics we operated with PRIOR to marriage must be modified when we enter into a lifelong commitment.

In discussing the function of a wife, do you believe that most black men are still seeking women who can embrace the "traditional" wife role? The traditional wives were homemakers and full-time mothers... the traditional husbands were the primary breadwinners...it seems that ALL of those men who want a "traditional" wife have not positioned themselves financially and mentally to be the "traditional" husbands...


Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

Hagar's Daughter said...

I'll answer the call for married women to speak, but again I know I'm no expert and will only speak from my 15 1/2 years of experience.

First, let me say that girls, teens, & young women are watching how we model relationships and marriage. There was not one woman whose role as wife I wanted to emulate, not one. The women in my life seemed to be working harder and giving more than they were receiving. None of them seemed genuinely happy (my perception) and many seemed to settle for that "piece of man" BS (I'd overheard some of them say this). I have told my father that he was a better father than husband and he has ask forgiveness. I find this heartbreaking that none of the women in life seemed happy or seemed to define themselves outside of their roles as wife and mother.

Second, women do not NEED a man in our lives or NEED husbands rather we (heterosexuals) WANT them and CHOOSE them to become part of our lives. I imagine lesbians WANT and CHOOSE to be partnered. This should be how any woman develops a life plan. And if a woman chooses to remain single then that is a valid plan also.

Now if this sounds like a repeat of my previous comments it is because these are key core issues that should be addressed, then a more detailed plan can be developed.

The functions of a wife?..hmmm...I think my duty & responsibility is to be honest to myself and my husband. I need to know what I will compromise on and negotiate about and when I draw the line. Abuse is never okay in any form. I usually very vocal about it: I will compromise about _____, but not_____. I like _____. I'm not into mind games and guessing games and all of that. My husband does not like to "talk" about what is wrong or right in great detail. He wants to "fix" what's not working. So communication that is spoken about as being important, it is, but it's not like talking to my sista-friends. He ain't having it and will zone out. When I need to talk about what's bothering me or my goals, I'll let him know that I need to talk and I need him to listen and not "fix" anything, and he does. I've learned to live and love my husband by allowing him / his actions / his likes and dislikes / his personality teach me. I've learned to better negotiate in other situations also. We don't try to fix each other or change each other. Our love for each other and our desire to remain married guide us. For example, recently I wanted to move to another state for a different job he told me to go for it. I didn't because similar jobs are available in the state we live in. Previously we relocated so that I could take advantage of a career opportunity - he was well established in his own career but choose to move.
Even with all of this we disagree, argue, and all of that. We find time for ourselves and we make time for each other even to sit in silence. It's not all fun & games. Plus you have to be willing to get bored sometimes - just trust me on this one.

Anxious Black Woman said...

I co-sign with others to say this conversation is absolutely critical and compelling. Thanks for starting this, Lisa!

Miriam said...

re: finding assets in BW.

Now I'm not sure how to interpret this,but I've noticed that in Israel, the majority of ppl who marry BW or dark women are typically the type who

(1) don't care too much what society says. They have a mind of their own and

(2) are usually very spiritual. Into meditation, into kabbalah type things.

So, sometimes I think ppl see BW as very spiritual people and are attracted to that.

You asked "How do we change the definition in the minds of black women of what SHOULD BE their 'status quo'?" I don't know. I have to think long & hard about this and other questions people have raised.

I think these things we have to wrestle the minds and imaginations of BW away from mainstream media. And that's a hard one.

Khadija said...

Miriam,

You said that sometimes you think that people "see BW as very spiritual people and are attracted to that."

Hmmm..."spirtitual" as a marketing brand for Black women...which usually has good & wholesome connotations in terms of marriage & family life...it's good as long as it's spiritual/attractive & not spiritual/matronly...hmmm...I like it.

Ladies, I think we might have a winning "brand" here! Thanks, Miriam!

Peace, blessings & solidarity.

Miriam said...

I'm nervous to answer the "call " for married women because I've only been married for 5 years. But from the little bit that I know...

I think a definite role for the woman and a definite role for the man is GOOD. It doesn't really matter how it gets defined as long as both parties are okay with it and are capable of fulfilling their role.

keeping the doors closed -or at least ajar. Very often, when someone has problems things can get tricky because they they tend to vent and rant to all the wrong people. Then those ppl in turn gets a piece of the whole picture -usually the bad side. When the couple actually 'kiss and make up' the other folks are still with the negative impression which usually causes the spouse to have to 'keep up the act' of how bad the other spouse is.

But on the flip side, not talking about a problem---deadly silence- can keep people from finding solutions. Some kind of balance is important there.

That's one thing I learned. The hard way. lol.

Also, for me -whom I told you all how prudish I can be. I know I had to compromise. Interestingly I married a guy who very NOT prudish. But I realize that alot of my prudishness came from residual copings from the abuse. Furthermore, I 've learned that if I control the environment:for example: requesting that the lights be x (bright, dim, dark,etc) and that the windows be x, and we have candles, or whatever...basically when I feel in control of the situation, it "cures" the prudishness.

And finally, even though many of our holy books are patriarchal -I think its important to note that how could a man write for a woman? If men wrote it, we can extrapolate womenly issues from there but bashing it because its patriarchal- I don't know.

Especially if it was written by loving men.

some things I"ve learned from holy books:

From Bible & Heb. Bible: women didn't do ALL the work around the house! Many had servants.

in Israel, the young daughters are the backbone of the community. Everyone employs them to help with babysitting, housework, etc.

From Judaism: When a women doesn't work on herself, like in the case of Eve (okay how could she, she just barely ate the fruit) God said to Adam not to listen to her. However, when a women does work on herself (example Sarah) God said to Abraham, "Everything she says, heed!"

From the Devorah story: One doesn't need to sacrifice their femininity to be powerful, etc. Even thought she was a judge (the highest position among the Hebrews back in the times of the judges) she still sat under a palm tree to do her judging. She made herself comfortable, and didn't sacrifice her needs. (But she did get up to go to war with the men when requested!)

From the story of Hagar and Abraham. No matter what, women must not underestimate their worth. After Sarah died, it was Isaac himself who suggested to Abraham to go back to Hagar which he did. Hagar's new name was Keturah -(Heb. for incense) because she remained faithful (kept the "smell" of Abraham. i.e. wasn't with another man)

etc. etc. etc. Basically I'm saying these could be good sources if read in search of its inner meaning -not the face value meaning -which was meant for men.

Also, someone once told me that at the end of times -according to the Koran, women will rule. Is that so? There is also something similarly said in Judaism.

I think what this means is that a point will come that women can be made to open their eyes. They don't have to submit to whatever society dictates. HOpefully the time is now -which would mean that this messages, your message Lisa can go forth and be heard.

LISA VAZQUEZ said...

Welcome Hagar's Daughter!
Welcome Anxious Black Woman!
Welcome Miriam!
Welcome Khadija!

Thanks so very much for the input!

It's always beneficial to hear the perspectives of married women because there is a different dimension to understand that is very important in this discussion about sexual ethics and how those sexual ethics are negotiated and how they can and should be modified and under which conditions.

I thought about the "marketing plan" for black women as marriage partners....

I'd have an infomercial about black women.

We have lots of traits that would be viewed in a positive light that would highlight our eligibility as potential wives:
- we are creative by nature
- we are extremely loyal
- we are sensual
- we are protective
- we are sensitive
- we are emotionally perceptive
- we are intrigued by the paranormal and the superatural (this makes us interesting to watch and listen to!! *smile*)
- we are maternal/nurturing
- we are child friendly
- we seek security quickly
- we are curious
- we are clannish
- we are sexually conservative (meaning, not into fetishes and weirdness!!)
- we value exclusivity
- we are unifiers

For the men who want an "everywoman" type of wife....
We are all gifted in cooking (with mastery of three cuisines), skilled in vacuuming, and home decorating! *LOL* ooooh, and we can multi-task (able to make home-made bread while running the lawn mover in the back yard and while changing a diaper and all this while wearing a negligee since we KNOW men are visual)! *LOL*
Okay, okay....

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Greetings, Rev. Lisa!

Some other items to your list: because we are not always raised according to the standards of some women who are taught from the day they are born that it's all about them, and who thus can tend to be narcissistic and irresponsible while they wait to be rescued, we can argue as part of our brand that we were raised differently, and so we are different (better):

We're traditionally not narcissistic pampered princesses, which is important for the give and take of a marriage. Thus, we can deal with adversity, an important part of marriage, because we know that all is not a "bed of roses." We are also raised to be responsible, because we were not raised to believe that somebody somewhere will come and rescue us when we are irresponsible.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

When I say responsible, I mean that marriage is not for little girls (and boys) who always want to point the finger at others to take care of things.

It is about being a grown-up responsible woman, who is thinking about "how to make this work." It isn't about fulfilling a fairy tale that we were told we have to fit into.

It's about: How can I work with him; how can he work with me? How am I responsible for communicating my needs and interests?

What do we both need to do to make the team strong and workable, yet at the same time, let each person feel fulfilled?

LISA VAZQUEZ said...

Welcome Pioneer Valley Woman!

Thank you for adding this to the discussion!

You brought up such a great point because I don't think that some fathers who love to pamper their daughters realize that they ARE conditioning us to think that the world is all about them.

My father did not think that he was spoiling his children. I never felt that I was spoiled or pampered. My father did not say "oh yes sweetie pie" to every request. he had no problems saying "you are grounded for one month, now go to your room and this family will see you next month". YIKES!

You said:
"...we were not raised to believe that somebody somewhere will come and rescue us when we are irresponsible."

As a girl, Dad was stern about stressing the importance of self-responsibility but there was a mixed message...the message that Dad would always be there if things didn't go well.

My father used to love to sing a hit 70s song out loud in the house within my ear shot. The song was called "Rich Girl" and the chorus (which I still remember) went like this:
"You're a rich girl
And you've gone too far
But you know it don't matter anyway
You can rely on your old man's money
You can rely on your old man's money..."


Dad would sing it and smile at me from across the room. Yes, I think I did believe that I would always be rescued... hmmm....this is something to ponder more deeply.

Would I put myself on the list of "eligible to marry"? Now that I have heard from the married ladies here... I'd honestly say, no I'd probably not. I see that I need to wait on that...and grow more.

Thanks for sharing!

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

Hagar's Daughter said...

I agree with PVW when she said marriage is about being a grown up who can communicate her/his needs, about figuring out how to work with each other, and allowing both people to be fulfilled. That's it! It may sound simple, but it can get messy in the details. But both people have to be fulfilled and I think that was missing in the lives of the women I watched as I grew up.